Balance Patch 2.1

Codex
41

Good to call out needing more clarity, that is ambiguous. Yes the intent is “it works like it did before, just smaller buff and takes at least one turn”. Maybe

?

I still don’t love the wording, open to ideas here

42

I’m not sure if all of that is necessary, but none of it looks unreasonable, except that losing haste seems overly punishing to ephemeral units and Chameleon Lizzo.

43

Exhaust: This card gains “This card doesn’t ready.” and “While this card has 5 or more growth runes, your units and heroes get +3/+3.”

2 Likes
44

Thanks @FrozenStorm !

I think nerfs are pretty good for a next round. The top decks are still very strong, but it should be possible to beat them now more frequently.

Regarding buffs is much more required in my opinion, but let’s go in small steps. I would suggest Troq to band at 3 and 6. With 7 he is still too weak and you would always find a better hero even considering that he is neutral. With 3 & 6 he might work in some niche decks. I would test it and take him.

45

I’m up for playing a tournament with these changes. I agree we do need a bit more clarity though.

Vandy maxband: Does it not targeting mean that the opponent now can/must trigger it on their turn?

MoLaC: Once upon a time I proposed something like this: :arrow_heading_down: → If there are at least 5 growth runes on this, your heroes and units get +3/+3 until your next upkeep.

The Boot: If the idea is to mirror Doom Grasp, it should be: Discard a card. If you do, destroy a tech 0, I or II unit. Or do we want it to be like Martial Mastery, where you can circumvent the discard?

2 Likes
46

Yes, this is the test @thehug0naut and I are doing, have it trigger on opponent’s turn too. Really heightens the “deal with the devil” flavor for her I think ^ _ ^

I like that one best, make you re-tap it each time

I like the martial mastery angle, I’d vote going with that

This is really only a problem for Peace T2 + Tech Lab Anarchy yea? I think that’s fine, you run the risk if you try to go Garrison

Bit shruggy shoulders at this one :man_shrugging: I think w/ the other buffs he’s worth considering at 7 still but I’d be fine trying 6 too

2 Likes
47

Peace/Blood also with 'barrows and Gliders. Come to think of it, there are a lot of other cases where players might want to invest in haste that aren’t broken in combination with Flagstone Garrison that this proposed nerf would foreclose, e.g. paying to maxband Drakk to haste one powerful unit to take out a powerful threat after the opponent pummels you with everything they have. I mean, that’s one unit per turn that has to come before any card draws gained from Garrisons, and it’s expensive. I think some level of incompatibility is warranted here, but I feel like this goes way overboard, so I’d like to find a way to preserve the spirit of the nerf (to prevent dumping a bunch of cheap, hasty units, having them suicide attack, triggering a reshuffle, and then playing them and having them suicide attack again in the same turn) without making its effects so far-reaching and overly restrictive.

How about this instead? Flagstone Garrison: “Haste. Exhaust: Until end of turn, whenever you play a unit from hand, that unit loses haste and cannot gain haste, and you draw a card.” This way, if a player happens to draw ephemeral units naturally or via some other source of card draw, they could play them as intended if they opt out of getting Garrison draws from them, but once they opt into drawing cards for playing units, they’d be locking themselves out of attacking with any units they might happen to draw and play until their next turn. This would make these spec combos awkward but doable if the player weighs their options and adapts to their opponent’s plays, but would prevent just dumping their entire deck and steamrolling their opponent each turn.

48

Just realized you dropped some of the old nerfs like Dp, bs and birds. Sure? Without those nerfs troq has to wait, it opens the doors for some other decks I wanted to play.

49

How about we just get rid of low tech haste with the Garrison nerf, that way it’s very specifically aiming at Burning Legion and other cheap easy haste but not tech lab combos:

Flagstone Garrison: Whenever you play a unit from your hand, draw a card. If that unit is Tech 0 or I, it also loses Haste.

50

I think all the suggestions work and are fine too nerf burning legion. Would not spend too much time on that. Tech2 2 haste with garrison is too weak against other top strategies so will anyway not play a major role in the tournaments. And the fun games are played without the balance patch.

51

Little clunky but I’m fine with that

Negative, all other changes still in play, just shorthanded to this line of link

1 Like
52

Ok makes sense!

53

Ok looked a bit more into Troq, so here is a summary. The target in my opinion should be, that you can somehow create with him a deck that has a chance against the current best decks, for example (which are nerfed but still in the top 5): Nighmare, Burning Legion, Miracle Growth… Just put him in a deck, which can win against mono blue, would not be enough. (Nothing against mono blue, just an example I think you know what I mean).

I like his new midband and maxband skills, but they are defenetly not the the best ones. I think they are comparable with other combat heroes and can be used in some situations very well. So the question for me was, is there any reason to prefer Troq before Vandy or Cala:

  • Spells: He loses defenitly against Cala and Vandy. His spells can only be used in rare situations. The Boot for examply only against very strong tech2 units, which are not that often played. (you don’t want to do a bad trade in a highly competetive matchup)
  • Ulti: Troq’s is not bad I think, but Cala and Vandy have top Ulti spells. So he loses.
  • Tech 1: Definetly loses against Cala, Vandy is a bit special.
  • Tech 2: Troq’s tech 2 is unplayable. Cala and Vandy work in some combinations very well.

What I would do:

  • Tech 2 is too complicated to balance in a first step. For me it would be OK just to know that I have only 2 Tech2 options in the Deck.
  • Spells: You already improved a bit, I would not do much more here either. In rare situations you can use them.
  • Tech 1: Give the Ozelot anti air. Neutral starter + tech 1 just don’t have anti air, because in a matchup against each other they don’t need it. This should be corrected and it fits to the card. Then Troq has at least 1 unit which is playable and as strong as Hauntress
  • Troq himself: His new skills fit to him, I just would give him the same mid/max like Cala and Vandy 3/5. Although he is still much worse regarding spells and tech2 he can be interesing if you want a bulky hero, don’t play black or green and want to stay in mono color.
1 Like
54

I agree that both of these are good standards for evaluating a buffed Troq.

I disagree re: Cala, her non-ult spells are all extremely situational. I’d say that the buffed Intimidate is a safer tech choice than any of her spells.

Agreed.

IMHO “a bit special” is an understatement. Demonology tech 1 is extremely situational at best. Personally I’d put it in the bottom 3 of the game (along with Strength & Ninja).

All three are pretty weak. Demon and Feral tech 2 might work ok in some combinations, but they definitely don’t hold up against the top decks.

Agreed on both counts.

I disagree re: Finesse v Bashing (Ocelot with AA makes Cloud Sprite much riskier), but we’re already messing up that matchup. I’d be ok with this.

Seems like a bit of an over-correction to me (Grave-like progression is already quite good), but I’m willing to try it.

One thing you haven’t included here is the Neutral starter, which is strong in itself, in addition to allowing mono-color. You can now play [Bashing]/Blue or [Bashing]/Green for a more proactive starter, without committing to a specific starting hero. Or you can throw Troq into Purple to have a proper combat hero help you survive to tech 2. I’m considering all of those for the tourny.

1 Like
55

Good comments and good addition with the neutral starter.

Isn’t this exactly, what we want to achieve? Somoeone really thinking [Bashing]/Blue or [Bashing]/Green or other combinations might win you the tourney and testing it? Weakening the top decks and bringing more opportunities out, that we have a bunch of decks with chances to win.

Are they good enough or maybe even too strong, I don’t know. Mono purple with Troq could be very strong. It is the question if the 1g more is better vs the disadvantages in comparison to Cala or Vandy.

@Dreamfire Dreamfire: With Grave-like stats I would not even think about him. I don’t see any reason for prefering him before Vandy, Cala or Grave. I think no one would take him.

56

Ok let’s bring it to a decision in the next days. I personally think it is better if someone is playing Troq in the tournament, that we get some data, but it must not be. I would proceed the following:

  1. Does anyone wants to play him with the buffs suggested by Frozen above? If yes, we can stop here. I will not play him under these conditions. @Dreamfire you have the right thinking, please feel free if you found something to make him work.

  2. Would someone play him with 3/6 with or without ozelot buff? As mentioned above I will have to do some testing before the tourney. I think in 90% of the cases it is better to take Cala/ Vandy or someone else, but maybe I will find something. I am currently very busy, but I want to take the time to get a deck from which I am convinced, otherwise I will not have fun in the tourney.

  3. If no one wants to play him with the conditions in 1. or 2. the last question would be, if we give him 3/5 + ozelot anti air. Here I can already confirm that I will play him, because I am confident to find something where he is slightly better vs. Cala or Vandy. Dreamfire mentioned some examples. If the decks are good enough to stand against Burning Legion or Nightmare is a different question.

I would like to hear your opinion, especially from the people participating or planning to participate. We are not defining the next forum standard, just the rules for the next tournament.

57

I have no shame and would play with the buffs I suggested. I don’t think “Oh this is so strong I’ll for sure win”, but I think they’re worth trying out and I intend to do so.

3 Likes
58

Sounds good!

59

summary for the balance changes for the upcoming tournament

Nerfs
Vandy Remove resist 1 at midband
Midband changes to “①, :arrow_heading_down:, Discard a card → Fetch any non-ultimate Demonology spell from your codex, reveal it, then put it in your hand.”
Maxband loses targeting, changes to giving the weakest unit on each side +2/2 (analogously to StW)
Garth Reduce midband stats to 2/3
Deteriorate Increase cost to 1
Ability changes to “Cannot target illusions. Give a unit -1/-1 until end of turn.”
Lich’s Bargain Base damage increased from 4 to 6 5
Flagstone Garrison Ability changes to “Your units can no longer have haste. Whenever you play a unit, draw a card”
Pirate Gunship Remove obliterate 2
Dark Pact Increase cost to 1
Bird’s Nest Change Upkeep to “Resummon one lost bird (max: 2)”
Battle Suits Change to apply to “Purple Soldiers and Mystics”
Might of Leaf and Claw :arrow_heading_down: → If there are at least 5 growth runes on this, your heroes and units get +3/+3 until your next upkeep
Buffs
Troq Midband at 3, maxband at 7
Modify midband ability to “Attacks: deal 1 damage to one of that opponent’s buildings”
Modify maxband ability to Overpower
The Boot Modify text to “Discard a card, then destroy a tech 0, I or II unit” modify type from “Spell - Debuff” to “Spell”
Intimidate Modify text to “Give a unit or hero -4/-1 until your next turn.”
General’s Hammer Cost reduced to 2
2 Likes
60

Does Lich’s Bargain need to be 6 damage? I know that was my suggestion but nobody has played it since. I wonder if 5 damage is enough.

1 Like