Balance Patch 2.1

I was thinking about Troq again. @mysticjuicer is this what happened when he became your waifu main? :sweat_smile:

I’m well aware I write essays as opposed to easily digestible posts so here is my attempt at being brief:

Buffs
Troq Midband at 3, maxband at 7
Modify midband ability to “Attacks: deal 1 damage to one of that opponent’s buildings”
Modify maxband ability to Overpower
The Boot Modify text to “Discard a card, then destroy a tech 0, I or II unit” modify type from “Spell - Debuff” to “Spell”
Intimidate Modify text to “Give a unit or hero -4/-1 until end of turn. Draw a card.”

I think midband at 3 is key to getting Troq to see play more when we have Vandy/Calamandra/Grave/Rook also on offer as big bodies attached to more exciting specs.

The more I thought about it, Overpower just feels much more on flavour than Readiness and Overpower would be unique amongst heroes. Midband “damage a building” lets him break an add-on by himself, which actually seems great.

I think The Boot really needs to be more flexible and scale better into the late game. Limiting it to Tech 0 or I makes it very hard to tech in. I’m not convinced on the upgrade removal cost wise as Midori can trash an upgrade for 2g and Vir can steal one for 3g. I think keeping it simple (i.e. “Bashing-y”) but extending it’s scope is the best choice. I added a discard effect to try and balance it. It’s more costly for early use but still valuable vs Finesse to stop Fencers for example.

I’ve combined @Dreamfire’s and my own suggestions for Intimidate. It feels like a combination of Discord and Boot Camp which I like. The discard in The Boot and card draw here feel synergistic, which Bashing sorely needs. Card draw is also good with Wrecking Ball and with just getting his chunky units out.

TLDR: Troq likes bashing, let him bash.

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Out of respect for my main, I abstained from conscious thought while playing Yomi 1 Troq. :pensive: :pray:

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IMHO this is the only kind of buff that we should currently consider for the Blue starter - ones that are specifically targeted at the Blue v Black matchup.

Another option in this vein that I previously proposed was to make Deteriorate unable to pop illusions. Force the Black player to play Skeletal Archery or tech a Crypt Crawler (the way every other color needs to proactively pursue an answer to Spectral Aven).

OTOH, a buff to Jail or Building Inspector or w/e helps the side that is already strongly favored in Blue v Purple (and TBH, if any blue starter card needs a buff it’s Bluecoat Musketeer, not these).

At this point I’m willing to try out just about any buffs to Troq. That said, swapping out Readiness for Overpower is not a buff but a flavor change, which I consider outside the purview of a balance patch.

Also, the proposed buff to The Boot strikes me as hilariously overpowered, but again, I’m willing to try anything. I would however suggest to change the wording to match Doom Grasp: “Discard a card. If you do, destroy a tech 0, I or II unit.”

2 Likes

@thehug0naut The changes are worth testing. I am not so sure if that is enough for players to take him. I would still not choose him. Overpower is for me not worth it, although it is a very strong ability.

With leveling at 3 and 5 I might consider him for a deck. But still Grave, Vandy or Cala are in almost all cases the better choice for me. Spells better, tech 1 better and tech2 better. So you just take him if you want a neutral starter or stay mono color. And if he does not level at 3 and 5 you will have to pay the 1g bonus later back.

We buffed him, and still no one thinks he is worth playing in a tournament. I doubt that this will change it. But if you want to play him with those buffs, you have my support.

1 Like

I like this quite a bit actually. Easiest implementations would be:

Deteriorate
Version 1 Give a non-illusion unit -1/-1 until end of turn.
Version 2 Remove :target: symbol

If anyone is game for it, I would be up for testing the Blue side of Blue vs Black with either of these and/or my StW-proof Newsman suggestion.

Absolutely fair comment, though I would argue that Overpower is still very much in-keeping with the flavour of Troq the character. Regardless I’m happy to pull back on some of my more radical ideas so we can get something agreed. I think that is the most important thing for this project.

My current suggestion for bashing then becomes:

Bashing
Troq Midband at 3, maxband at 7
Swap mid and maxband
Modify maxband to “Attacks: deal 1 damage to one of that opponent’s buildings”
The Boot Modify text to “Discard a card. If you do, destroy a tech 0, I or II unit” modify type from “Spell - Debuff” to “Spell”
Intimidate Modify text to “Give a unit or hero -4/-1 until end of turn. Draw a card.”

His Tech I units are still not that great but at least he would now have good spell utility throughout a game. I would also be up for testing these changes in a series of games. Is that what you were meaning @Moby_Dick, or did you mean you’re happy for these to be live in a tournament?

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Removing targeting from deteriorate is… not recommended. Now it kills traffic director and nullcraft, and bypasses resist. It’s a huge buff.

And I think the first one doesn’t prevent it from actually targeting the illusion? It means the illusion doesn’t get the debuff, in case of it being buffed by macciatus, but you can still target the illusion, which is what kills it.

2 Likes

I don’t think that’s right, is it? Otherwise anything that targets and affects patrollers could pop an non-patrolling illusion, and Thunderclap’s peculiarities would be the norm. Being able to target illusions would have text like “Give a unit -1/-1 if it’s an illusion”.

Thunderclap works like that because the card itself does not specify it must target patrollers. I think all other cards that deal with sidelining specify patroller

@thehug0naut Yes, the second one. I have currently not much time for testing or playing.

We buffed Troq, but no one plays him, so we don’t even see if the changes are useful or not. So there must be changes, that someone is willing to play him. (I don’t think your proposals are that radical). If the proposed changes are for you enough to play him, go ahead. I see him still too weak…

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Cards that do something to “a patrolling unit” can’t target non-patrolling units (e.g. Arrest). So a card that does something to “a non-illusion unit” can’t target illusions. Plus, you know, there’s not much point in arguing about what the card “actually” does, when we’re deciding what we want it to do.

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I disagree, keeping the rules internally consistent is still important.

I can’t think of any other card that excludes a target rather than specifying, so I don’t know if we have something to base it on

Can Thunderclap target a Spectral Roc?

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Good catch! This is exactly why we need to use our codex hive mind to process changes.

I don’t think this is how I’ve ever understood targeting to work in codex. I don’t think you can target separately from the actual effect. If you could, for example, Vandy could use her Maxband to pop Tech II illusions even though she explicitly isn’t allowed to doombuff them, or I could use Bloom/Forest’s Favour to pop opposing illusions despite only being allowed to give runes to friendly units.

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Seconding Neko, hug0naut and DF here, I think the precedent is there for “give a XYZ or nonABC” in targeting being understood to mean it can’t target that thing. If we think the wording can be improved to be more explicit, though, I’d recommend

Cannot target illusions. Give a unit -1/-1 until end of turn.

Simple enough, less elegant but more explicit.

I actually wonder if that single change to Black vs Blue makes the matchup 7-3 or even closer, I’m up to playtest that or that + the already errata’d Black changes.

As for Troq… poor Troq. What if the Boot could target tech 3 for a discard? Maybe you had to boost X to increase the tech level of what you’re destroying?

3 Likes

I wondered the same thing, I suspect Vandy would still need to lose meta fetching but that might be all that’s needed. I’d be up for playtesting the blue side.

Boost is an interesting idea for Troq spells, it fits with his giant growth stuff from yomi quite well. Not sure what the right boost cost would be but say something like:

The Boot - Spell - 3g
Destroy a tech 0 or tech I unit.
If you boosted 2g, destroy a tech II unit instead.

Would be 5g to get rid of any Tech II. That’s essentially the same as a skeleton sacrifice Doom Grasp only it can’t kill heroes.

As an aside, my funnest version of the Boot is still the “to spaaaace” version my brother suggested:

The Boot - Spell - 3g
Trash a tech 0 or tech I unit.

I know it would probably almost certainly break the balance of Bashing vs Finesse but it’s super fun to fire units into orbit.

Edit: added costs and types

3 Likes

what about: kill a unit with 1 life @

i know, it changes a lot about the spell but it often will have a similar outcome and doesn’t destroy truth

That’s a cool idea, but at that point it’s really not the same card anymore, is it?

I know the latest proposed change is not elegant, but I’m still in favor of targeted changes rather than full rewrites.

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I don’t actually think the errata we’ve come up with is all that clunky. It’s definitely helping a lot w/ Blue vs Black which was a total mess of a matchup without it, and having DP and Det at 1g cost feels like it’s going to make for a pretty interesting matchup. Black still has tons of targeting with Disease and actually makes Disease feel like the strong spec in the color so far (Crypt Crawler’s targeting is MORE than suitable as a replacement for how to deal w/ Aven and Roc, and Sickness for Tiger / Hound / Flagbearer / Reteller).

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Reviving the thread here a bit… is there outstanding debate to be had? So far I’ve seen

  • Definitely not for Jail at 2 cost. That makes sense to me
  • Maybe we hit MoLaC too hard
  • Some debate about proper Garrison changes (no haste? no draw for haste?)
  • Lots of ideas for Troq, no real agreement

I’ll give another run at proposing 2.2 changes, @Nekoatl @thehug0naut @zango @Dreamfire @Moby_Dick @Bryce_The_Rice please leave thoughts and maybe we still have time for a CAMS 2023?

Running proposal for “Forum Standard” Rules Addenda v 2.2 (CAPS23 Edition)

In addition to the 2.1 changes

Nerfs
Vandy Midband changes to “①, :arrow_heading_down:, Discard a card → Fetch any non-ultimate Demonology spell from your codex, reveal it, then put it in your hand.”
Vandy Maxband loses targeting, changes to giving the weakest unit on each side +2/2
Flagstone Garrison Ability changes to “Your units can longer have haste. Whenever you play a unit, draw a card”
Deteriorate Ability changes to “Cannot target illusions. Give a unit -1/-1 until end of turn.”
Buffs
General’s Hammer Cost reduced to 2
Might of Leaf and Claw Remove previous 2.1 changes. Gives +3/+3 and requires tapping and consuming 5 runes
Troq Midband at 3, maxband at 7
Modify midband ability to “Attacks: deal 1 damage to one of that opponent’s buildings”
Modify maxband ability to Overpower
The Boot Modify text to “Discard a card, then destroy a tech 0, I or II unit” modify type from “Spell - Debuff” to “Spell”
Intimidate Modify text to “Give a unit or hero -4/-1 until your next turn.”
3 Likes

I second all the nerfs, as I think they are necessary.
About the buffs I’m not having a strong opinion, but I would be fine testing these out :+1:
A short clarification question about MoLaC: the exhaustion is required for a then permanent effect, right? It’s not meant as a buff for a single turn and it cannot be applied more than once, right?