Balance Patch 2.1

I agree that both of these are good standards for evaluating a buffed Troq.

I disagree re: Cala, her non-ult spells are all extremely situational. I’d say that the buffed Intimidate is a safer tech choice than any of her spells.


IMHO “a bit special” is an understatement. Demonology tech 1 is extremely situational at best. Personally I’d put it in the bottom 3 of the game (along with Strength & Ninja).

All three are pretty weak. Demon and Feral tech 2 might work ok in some combinations, but they definitely don’t hold up against the top decks.

Agreed on both counts.

I disagree re: Finesse v Bashing (Ocelot with AA makes Cloud Sprite much riskier), but we’re already messing up that matchup. I’d be ok with this.

Seems like a bit of an over-correction to me (Grave-like progression is already quite good), but I’m willing to try it.

One thing you haven’t included here is the Neutral starter, which is strong in itself, in addition to allowing mono-color. You can now play [Bashing]/Blue or [Bashing]/Green for a more proactive starter, without committing to a specific starting hero. Or you can throw Troq into Purple to have a proper combat hero help you survive to tech 2. I’m considering all of those for the tourny.

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Good comments and good addition with the neutral starter.

Isn’t this exactly, what we want to achieve? Somoeone really thinking [Bashing]/Blue or [Bashing]/Green or other combinations might win you the tourney and testing it? Weakening the top decks and bringing more opportunities out, that we have a bunch of decks with chances to win.

Are they good enough or maybe even too strong, I don’t know. Mono purple with Troq could be very strong. It is the question if the 1g more is better vs the disadvantages in comparison to Cala or Vandy.

@Dreamfire Dreamfire: With Grave-like stats I would not even think about him. I don’t see any reason for prefering him before Vandy, Cala or Grave. I think no one would take him.

Ok let’s bring it to a decision in the next days. I personally think it is better if someone is playing Troq in the tournament, that we get some data, but it must not be. I would proceed the following:

  1. Does anyone wants to play him with the buffs suggested by Frozen above? If yes, we can stop here. I will not play him under these conditions. @Dreamfire you have the right thinking, please feel free if you found something to make him work.

  2. Would someone play him with 3/6 with or without ozelot buff? As mentioned above I will have to do some testing before the tourney. I think in 90% of the cases it is better to take Cala/ Vandy or someone else, but maybe I will find something. I am currently very busy, but I want to take the time to get a deck from which I am convinced, otherwise I will not have fun in the tourney.

  3. If no one wants to play him with the conditions in 1. or 2. the last question would be, if we give him 3/5 + ozelot anti air. Here I can already confirm that I will play him, because I am confident to find something where he is slightly better vs. Cala or Vandy. Dreamfire mentioned some examples. If the decks are good enough to stand against Burning Legion or Nightmare is a different question.

I would like to hear your opinion, especially from the people participating or planning to participate. We are not defining the next forum standard, just the rules for the next tournament.

I have no shame and would play with the buffs I suggested. I don’t think “Oh this is so strong I’ll for sure win”, but I think they’re worth trying out and I intend to do so.


Sounds good!

summary for the balance changes for the upcoming tournament

Vandy Remove resist 1 at midband
Midband changes to “①, :arrow_heading_down:, Discard a card → Fetch any non-ultimate Demonology spell from your codex, reveal it, then put it in your hand.”
Maxband loses targeting, changes to giving the weakest unit on each side +2/2 (analogously to StW)
Garth Reduce midband stats to 2/3
Deteriorate Increase cost to 1
Ability changes to “Cannot target illusions. Give a unit -1/-1 until end of turn.”
Lich’s Bargain Base damage increased from 4 to 6 5
Flagstone Garrison Ability changes to “Your units can no longer have haste. Whenever you play a unit, draw a card”
Pirate Gunship Remove obliterate 2
Dark Pact Increase cost to 1
Bird’s Nest Change Upkeep to “Resummon one lost bird (max: 2)”
Battle Suits Change to apply to “Purple Soldiers and Mystics”
Might of Leaf and Claw :arrow_heading_down: → If there are at least 5 growth runes on this, your heroes and units get +3/+3 until your next upkeep
Troq Midband at 3, maxband at 7
Modify midband ability to “Attacks: deal 1 damage to one of that opponent’s buildings”
Modify maxband ability to Overpower
The Boot Modify text to “Discard a card, then destroy a tech 0, I or II unit” modify type from “Spell - Debuff” to “Spell”
Intimidate Modify text to “Give a unit or hero -4/-1 until your next turn.”
General’s Hammer Cost reduced to 2

Does Lich’s Bargain need to be 6 damage? I know that was my suggestion but nobody has played it since. I wonder if 5 damage is enough.

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good point, changed it directly above. We want the card to still be playable.

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Pestering Haunt is still $0? Gross.

@zango You’ve got two different buffs to Troq’s body there.

Also, I thought the new Garrison nerf was meant to replace the Battle Suits nerf.

thanks for your always watchful eye. Corrected the body issue, 3/7 was the latest recommendation.

About the BS:

  1. the garrison nerf does nothing agains PPA, which was important for us back before burning legion was a thing. So if we drop this one, PPA will most likely be top tier again
  2. see below, that’s my impression on what at least two other forum members thought would be the right thing to do

Maybe for clarity the list should always include all changes including ones from previous versions, and ones that are unchanged from previous versions could be marked with italics or something?

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I had a test match against Zango and the Vandy doom nerf was really not fun to play in this matchup. You always have to consider the consequences in Codex, but here it was just annoying.

The issue was, against birds. If they are out (and they are already annoying) you have to doom them, if no other 1/1 unit is out, which is usually not the case. This means you will phase directly 4 damage, which are often enough to decide the game. So you are always considering when you can maxband Vandy and when might birds come out. This should not be the main focus of the matchup. I think similar things can happen with nullcraft. Haunt is something to consider as well.

Maxbanding should not have such a negative impact in certain matchups. I understand the purpose of the change, but it should be solved somehow different, e.g. like before but just remove the target effect. Or make doom optional.

I’m personally not married to that specific change. The more important nerf to Vandy IMHO is her midband not fetching Meta.

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Meta hits vandy very hard, indeed. But it seems to be fair and does not change the flow of the game.

What was the rationale behind the Vandy maxband change? I didn’t see any discussion of it before it just showed up in the list of changes. It feels yucky to me.

Everything else mostly looks good. I’d maybe swap Troq’s midband and maxband, since my gut says the overpower is better in early game combat for clearing patrols, and the building damage is mostly important once Troq is at maxband so he can one shot a tech building.

The vandy doom tinkering originates from blue vs black testing, but they didn’t come to a lot situations where this mattered.

As Moby wrote: we tested as well and it’s really a big thing to be able to force the opponent into what to doom.
I’m inclined to say we should restrict ourself to further test the non-Meta-fetch change first and we’ll see how hot vandy still is after all the other nerfs.


Please do note that I did leave out the vandy maxband nerf for the upcoming tourney. Let me know if you have strong feelings about including this nerf for the tourney.

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I think it’s a great change for Blue vs Black and the Birds / Nullcraft issues should be very workable (like don’t lean so heavy on early Vandy max in those matchups :wink: ), but I have no objection for the purposes of the current tourney leaving it alone for now

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Oh that was pretty nasty to play. In theory you can work around it if you already leading in the game. But it was more a question of dooming Vandy and losing her to face a maxband Rook or not dooming Vandy and loosing her to face a maxband Rook. It was disturbing the game flow, because you always have to consider that and anyway end up in a dead end.

I understand the purpose with blue. It only affects the game of Bryce and me. We can leave the function like it is (I choose the victims) but remove the target effect.