I agree with frozen that nightmare , as the strongest deck, should be somehow changed. As described I don’t think that Dp would be the ideal change but I am fine with it because i have no better idea without dealing with the black starter.
Zhav i don’t think vandy is more difficult to kill than sets., especially with bomber’s change. She is a bit underestimated. I just need to find the right deck for her…
Setsuki is still much easier to kill, especially early on: lower attack means you lose less material attacking her, and she can’t as easily keep your board under control; her midband does nothing on defence; and if you’re playing monocolour, then White struggles to put up sufficient defence in front of her. Her non-ultimate spells are also more situational. Best case for her early on is fighting small units, where her topband, her midband, and Shuriken Hail can be put to good use.
Let’s see. I will play her when I have the right deck.
Nightmare is strong primarily because of its heroes. By targeting Vandy and Garth specifically, it lessens the impact of the deck overall. If it makes it to metamorphosis, you still probably lose, but your space to interrupt that is larger.
It is possible that Dark Pact should cost 1, but I would prefer to just see how we proceed with a more killable Vandy first.
Yeaaaa… no. Setsuki is impossible to defend properly compared with Vandy. The design philosophy of HP in Codex is such that the increase in difficulty of killing something with 3 hp vs 4 hp is much smaller than the increase in difficulty of killing something with 5 hp.
Her topband is kinda nice for defending her specifically, but only on a mostly even board. Its designed to make trades unfavorable. If a single attacker can kill setsuki, its not nearly as impactful. It is significantly easier to deal 4 damage to setsuki in one attack, and even survive, then it is to deal 5 damage to vandy. Plus, vandy can benefit you by patrolling, and threatening to heal any damage you deal, while setsuki patrolling just means you should have out a differnt hero.
Midband at 3g + 4hp vs 3hp and 2/3attack vs 1/2 ay midband is a HUGE difference too. People splash Cala and Grave in decks for the exact same reason: being able to pay 2g to heal and get 4hp + 3 attack early game is BIG. It’s the difference between risky trades and safe aggression. Sets can’t fight back on board in the same way.
Yea, swift strike was obviously a very difficult ability to add to a hero.
Of course there must be sacrifices. A 4/5 swift strike hero, + draw 2 for free and pay 1g if you attack him would be definitely unbalanced. But there are ways to get there as well…
I agree with Frozen that Dark Pact is too strong and should get a nerf, but I totally get Bomber’s desire to test just one change per spec at a time. Personally I predict Vandy will still dominate without resist at midband, and I’ll probably play a [Demonology]/X/X codex to confirm this.
I don’t really agree with zhavier about Garth being a stalling hero. He IS good for stalling, but he’s also good at building board presence, removing backline threats/big bodies, rebuilding handsize, and fetching key combo pieces, plus he’s not terrible stats-wise. And that’s the problem, he’s too good at too many things.
And nobody is actually suggesting a nerf to Setsuki, right? I would love to see Moby_Dick or anyone else prove that she’s underrated, but so far the most successful White codex on these forums (Marto’s and EricF’s [Discipline/Strength]/Finesse AKA Daymare) has been the one that specifically excludes her.
Sounds good. I will try my best to find a suitable deck. But I have to admit that she has a p2 weakness against bulky heroes, which i don’t know how to solve yet. So my finesse demon peace has to wait one more tournament for further tests.
On the other hand i would like to see how you deal with black starter without garth if you want, dreamfire. I don’t think dp is the main problem within nightmare. I struggled with black starter and vandy more than i thought as p2. And in mouse database the most of the successful demon games were with garth as backup.
I will be playing Nightmare on the proposed changes, 100% XD. @zango you want me to help you get a Tourney signup thread together? I think we have our format decided it’s just a matter of finalizing the change list (@Bryce_The_Rice why don’t you post your final proposal w/ a T-Up/Down poll on it). I personally think if you’re targeting one and only one change per spec, DP >> resist for Vandy, the resist is ability salad on her and shouldn’t be there but DP is the real problem y’all, I feel quite confident in that.
I might dust off my [Demon]/Anarchy/Balance, my one tournament-winning codex from way back in 2018. That would also let me test the nerf to Gunships.
Yes, I can do the tournament organization in terms of doing the pairing. But I do absolutely need help from proper judges as my knowledge about rules is not too firm.
Also I would prefer if one of the more respected members in this forum would make the final call what the exact rules should be.
If those two conditions are set, I’m in for the rest of the organization.
PS: I started implementing the tool for doing the pairings via the proposed penalty algorithm but I’m sooo far behind schedule, that’s going to be some pressure for me 
challenge accepted!
I saw them in the database. I think most of the p2 vandy black starter wins without garth came from there. But i didn’t check how you did it. I thought probably gunship played a major role.
Meta as well IIRC. Invisible flying Midori and hasty invisible zane beast moding XD
I never said my intention was to limit to one change per spec. I actually have two changes out for Necromancy already, remember?
I’m not against a nerf to Dark Pact, and it may be necessary, but I don’t want to be too harsh on Black for now.
So, that said, the list of changes as discussed:
Pirate Gunship:
Loses Obliterate 2.
Vandy Anadrose:
Loses Resist 1 at midband.
Garth Torken:
Midband 2/4 → 2/3.
Lich’s Bargain:
Base damage 4 → 6.
Might of Leaf and Claw:
If you have no units in play, destroy this.
The only one of these I would say is not consensus at the moment is the Lich’s Bargain change. One alternative I saw that I actually do like is
Horror: Loses Deathtouch.
If we went with that I would suggest the base damage go to 5, and that would probably be a big enough nerf.
Is a normal 3/3, a 2/2, and a 1/1 Skeleton worth losing a worker and taking 5 base damage? I thought the deathtouch was on of the main reasons to play Lich’s Bargain at all.
I felt like the Garth change is the most controversial one, Lich’s Bargain I think is fine as is. Loosing Deathtouch is a huge nerf to LB I think, idk that it’s worth playing as much without that. I like the 6hp base damage hit better as an “adjustment” nerf
Deathtouch is the main reason to play it. The fact that sometimes the horror lives to attack again is just bonus. That said, the other big reason to play it is simply as an excellent lead in to Tech 2 on turn 3/4 for 2g. Even if your opponent can clear the 3 new units, Garth/tech 2 almost always sticks and can maxband to fetch a tech 2 right away.
The counterplay to lich’s bargain is limited to apply overwhelming immediate response to punish the base damage, or put up enough stalling that the lost worker matters. Deathtouch makes the stalling option particularly hard.
At the risk of making the card too complicated, I’d like to amend my previous suggestion. The clause to destroy it should not apply until it is active.
Whenever you deal combat damage with an attacker, put a growth rune on this.
While this has at least five growth runes, your units and heroes get +5/+5.
If this has 5 or more growth runes and you have no units in play, destroy this.