Blue (thehug0naut) vs Black (Frozenstorm) balance testing

Codex Codex play-by-forum
162

@thehug0naut :point_left: I wanna see this new Law machine

1 Like
163

do you play without targeting on vandy’s maxband? otherwise you have to pay for lookout.

164

Yessir we are playing “targeting off”

2 Likes
165

Harder, Better, Faster, Law-er

P2T5

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH

Arresting Constable (Anti-meta/aggro)
Guardian of the Gates (ditto)

STARTING HAND

Arresting Constable
Hallucination → Worker (I misread Jandra so happy to worker this)
Guardian of the Gates
Free Speech
Scribe

WORKERS

Porkhand Magistrate
Spectral Aven
Building Inspector
Hallucination

NextHand

Traffic Director
Lawful Search
Scribe
Bluecoat Musketeer
Manufactured Truth

Discard

Reputable Newsman

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + Scavenger - ($9)
Worker - ($8)
Quince+Mirror - ($6)
Free Speech - ($4)
Guardian of the Gates - ($1)

Float ($1)
Discard 2, draw 2, reshuffle, draw 2
Newsman dies in Technician at your upkeep, I draw 1

Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Guardian of the Gates 1/6A [Can’t Attack]
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger: Mirror Illusion 0/1
  • :pschip: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • L1 Sirius Quince 1/3
  • Jail -/3

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 5 (Law)

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 6
  • Disc: 1

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 9
Thoughts

Well I made it to Tech II and have a couple in hand. The question now becomes can I find a way to take control of the board and win. He’s obviously playing for Metamorphosis, so I need to cast Free Speech this turn. Ideally I’d find a way to worker and keep Quince alive to do it again and make some Constable copies. Free Speech + GotG seems like a strong patrol but I’m a little worried about getting blown up if I only have GotG and Mirror patrolling.

Potentially risky lines:

  1. Worker + Boosted Hoodie + Tech III - clears the mirror that comes with Quince, still has to go through GotG. in SQL he would need to use Vandy (disabled) + Jandra (dead and blows up Jav) so he would only have Garth left to attack with and Quince /Jail / Tech buildings are safe. Can also play Haunt after Jandra dies to get Hoodie into play. Fine with this line.

  2. Worker + 2xBoosted Hoodie - clears Mirror + GotG, let’s the rest of his board smash Quince/Jail/Tech buildings as he chooses. He’d have 9 attack so probably Quince + Tech II gone so I’m dead if he has two hoodies in hand.

  3. Worker + Boosted Hoodie + Maxband Garth - wastes Garth Maxband but frees up Vandy to kill Quince or break Jail after the rest take out GotG. As above can get a hoodie into play if he has Haunt. Probably unlikely given the wasted maxband but he could do it to set up for meta with Orpal on his next turn.

  4. Worker + Skeletal Lord + Haunt + Midband Garth - makes Jav a 2/2, so Jav+Vandy+Garth kills GotG, Jandra can safely kill Mirror and Overpower 2 damage to Quince/Jail/Tech II. Leaves him his disabled heroes but some Tech II units to build on. I think its a weaker line than above but still possible.

Alternative line for me is to play Scribe + Quince + Free Speech + GotG:

  1. I assume this would be his plan. Hoodie kills Mirror and he’s then ready for Tech III and I’d be 2 workers behind, likely a long term loss.

  2. Two boosted hoodies still doesn’t deal with GotG so he has to use Vandy + Jandra to kill it. Can use Jav before Jandra and Overpower 1 to Quince/Jail. Can’t kill/break though as Garth only has 1 attack. Seems to have nullified this line.

  3. Now Vandy can only clear out Scribe so I think this line wouldnt be very likely. He won’t want to waste Garth Maxband on such alow outcome.

  4. Overpower hits Scribe but otherwise similar. Probably also a low likely play.

On balance, I don’t think I want to fall completely behind on Tech III. Best I worker this turn, even if it means I’m at risk of total blowout from double Hoodie. Anything else and I have a fair shot at contesting the game.

166

Work it. Make it

Game 6 Player 1, Turn 6

P2 Black vs P1 Blue

Current balance patch changes in effect

Starting Hand

Thieving Imp
Crypt Crawler
Summon Skeletons
Sacrifice the Weak
Sickness

Events of Turn:

Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (9+2float)
  • Tech 2 Cards in (except on turn 1)
All Teched Cards

Wight, Necromancer
Metamorphosis, Dark Pact
Skeletal Lord, Sickness
Soul Stone, Dark Pact
Crypt Crawler, Hooded Executioner

Main:

  • Vandy hits SQL, takes 1, disabled for next turn
  • Skeleton Javelineer hits SQL, dies
  • Jandra kills SQL and overpowers mirror, dies, you get 1g
  • Garth hits your Jail to 2hp
  • Orpal (9)
  • Thieving Imp, to jail (6)
  • Crypt Crawler, break out Imp, you discard #1 of 5 (4)
  • Worker (3)
Workers

Sickness, Graveyard, Soul Stone, Pestering Haunt, Skeletal Archery, Poisonblade Rogue

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 2 Draw 4

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • Tech1 HP: 5
  • Tech2 HP: 5 NECRO
  • Hero’s Hall HP: 4

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Orpal (1/3a lvl 1)
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger:
  • :exhaust: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout: Thieving Imp (2/2)

In Play:

  • Vandy (4/5 lvl 5)

  • Garth (1/3 lvl 1)

  • (In Jail: Crypt Crawler)

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 2
  • Disc: 6

Gold:

  • Gold: 3
  • Workers: 10
End of Turn Hand

Dark Pact
Hooded Executioner
Skeletal Lord
Metamorphosis

End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts

Ah well, guess not so dead draw. I’m probably gonna tech more cards, so will worker sickness. Maybe it’ll be tech3, maybe some ultis if I can get the Meta off

167

P2T6

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH

Free Speech (For if Quince Survives)
Lawbringer Gryphon (In theory a win condition, though Crypt Crawler is a fairly hard counter)

STARTING HAND

Traffic Director → Discard
Lawful Search → Arresting Constable
Scribe
Bluecoat Musketeer
Manufactured Truth

WORKERS

Porkhand Magistrate
Spectral Aven
Building Inspector
Hallucination

NextHand

Scribe
Arresting Constable
Guardian of the Gates
Free Speech
Arrest

Discard

Reputable Newsman
Guardian of the Gates
Traffic Director
Lawful Search
Bluecoat Musketeer
Scribe
Manufactured Truth
Free Speech
Lawbringer Gryphon

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + Scavenger - ($10)
Lawful Search, draw a card and look at your hand - ($9)
Constable, exhaust and disable Garth - ($5)
Tower - ($2)
Oni - ($0)

Float ($0)
Discard 3, draw 5

Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: L1 General Onimaru 2/3A
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger: L1 Sirius Quince 1/3
  • :pschip: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Arresting Constable 2/3 [Haste]
  • Jail -/2

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 5 (Law)
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 0
  • Disc: 9

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 9
Thoughts

So my split was pretty terrible but at least I have card draw. Lawful Search first for that sweet sweet info.

Ok we’re dealing with Meta, DP, Hoodie, Skele Lord. DP means he could fetch more tools to clear units and work around Jail. I drew Constable so that gives me something to use against his Heroes. Constable+Tower+Oni, Constable disables Vandy again Garth, Oni in SQL, Quince in Tech/Scav seems most likely to be my turn. I probably prefer the extra card draw if Quince dies. No worker but makes more sense than risking the draw for Free Speech or a second Constable (each only a 20% chance)

His 13 gold easily lets him play Meta+Boosted Hoodie (11g total) which clears Constable, summons him a Tech II for free, then lets him kill Oni but not break anything important with demon Orpal. Unless he has the ability to draw and cast Doom Grasp Quince and Tech II should survive. Even if he does and kills Quince it would mean Tech II and Tower survive so I should still be in this.

Edit: Fixed my stupidity and tweaked my patrol. Doesn’t affect my hand as only had 5 cards in deck

168

isn’t she already disabled cuz gatekeeper?

2 Likes
169

Indeed this decision confuses me, it’s effectively a no op

1 Like
170

Thanks @Legion you are correct.

Apologies, I had a bit of a week tbh and I’ve been dealing with a lot of brain drain. For some reason I was thinking that @FrozenStorm had already had the disabled turn! :man_facepalming:

I appreciate it being flagged up to let me de-neuter my efforts :sweat_smile:

2 Likes
171

No worries, we all have those weeks

Game 6 Player 1, Turn 7

P2 Black vs P1 Blue

Current balance patch changes in effect

Starting Hand

Dark Pact
Hooded Executioner
Skeletal Lord
Metamorphosis

Events of Turn:

Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (10+3 float)
  • Elect to Tech 2 Cards in
All Teched Cards

Skeletal Lord, Death and Decay
Wight, Necromancer
Metamorphosis, Dark Pact
Skeletal Lord, Sickness
Soul Stone, Dark Pact
Crypt Crawler, Hooded Executioner

Main:

  • Metamorphosis, Imp dies, everyone maxbands and demonifies, Garth Fetches Wight (7)
  • Skeletal Lord, break Crypt Crawler out (4)
  • Hooded Exeuctioner, break other Skeletal Lord out (2)
  • Make a Skeleton (1)
  • Orpal Kills Onimaru, takes 3, levels fizzle
Workers

Sickness, Graveyard, Soul Stone, Pestering Haunt, Skeletal Archery, Poisonblade Rogue

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 1 Draw 2 rs Draw 1

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • Tech1 HP: 5
  • Tech2 HP: 5 NECRO
  • Hero’s Hall HP: 4

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Crypt Crawler (3/3a)
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger:
  • :exhaust: Technician: Skeleton (2/2)
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Vandy (4/5 lvl 5)
  • Garth (5/6 lvl 7)
  • Wight (4/4)
  • Skeletal Lord (3/3)
  • Orpal (4/4 lvl 6)
  • (In Jail: Hooded Executioner)

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 3
  • Deck: 9
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 1
  • Workers: 10
End of Turn Hand

Dark Pact
Deteriorate
Sacrifice the Weak

End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts

Meta successful, tower can only disable one per turn (unless free speech), next turn I should be able to break the tower, Wight’s here to deal w/ Quince, this should be GG

172

I think this line is showcasing why “Arrives or Attacks Exhausts” would be stronger for Constable disable than merely giving haste. Being able to affect heroes does feel really really nice though, I think that change is much needed.

Edit: Oh and I think Vandy should be a 6/5 and it should be Hoodie in Jail.

P2T7

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH

Judgment Day (last ditch effort)
Judgment Day (to increase the chance of drawing it)

STARTING HAND

Arrest → Worker (Not going to help much now)
Arresting Constable
Guardian of the Gates
Free Speech
Scribe

WORKERS

Porkhand Magistrate
Spectral Aven
Building Inspector
Hallucination
Arrest

NextHand

Lawful Search
Traffic Director
Scribe

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + Scav - ($10)
Worker - ($9)
Free Speech - ($7)
2nd Constable - ($3)
Exhaust constables, disable Vandy and Garth
Guardian of the Gates - ($0)

Float ($0)
Discard 1, reshuffle, draw 3

Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Guardian of the Gates 1/5A [Can’t Attack]
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger:
  • :pschip: Technician: L1 Sirius Quince 1/3
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Arresting Constable 2/3 [Haste]
  • Arresting Constable 2/3 [Haste]
  • Jail -/2

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 5 (Law)
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 3
  • Deck: 10
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 10
Thoughts

Free Speech is a must but he’s going to kill Quince and break my Tech II on his next turn so it’ll be a short lived survival for me.

Edit: Fixed my stupid brain nonsense

1 Like
173

Oh yeah, arrives or taps would be fine but attacking giving the disable + the damage would be too much.

That said, I am now seeing Quince could get 4 disables going with mirrors and that’s kinda scary :crazy_face:

We gotta stop this Free Speech reign of terror

Game 6 Player 1, Turn 8

P2 Black vs P1 Blue

Current balance patch changes in effect

Starting Hand

Dark Pact
Deteriorate
Sacrifice the Weak

Events of Turn:

Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (10+1 float)
  • no techs right now
All Teched Cards

Skeletal Lord, Death and Decay
Wight, Necromancer
Metamorphosis, Dark Pact
Skeletal Lord, Sickness
Soul Stone, Dark Pact
Crypt Crawler, Hooded Executioner

Main:

  • Crypt Crawler and Skeletal Lord kill GotG, they’re both disabled now and take 2
  • Wight Kills Quince, takes 2, levels fizzle, you draw 1
  • Orpal kills tower, takes 1, your base to 18
  • Skeleton breaks your jail, hoodie to my discard
  • Tech 3 (6)
Workers

Sickness, Graveyard, Soul Stone, Pestering Haunt, Skeletal Archery, Poisonblade Rogue

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 3 Draw 5

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • Tech1 HP: 5
  • Tech2 HP: 5 NECRO
  • Tech3 HP: 5
  • Hero’s Hall HP: 4

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader:
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger:
  • :exhaust: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Vandy (6/7 lvl 5)
  • Garth (5/6 lvl 7)
  • Wight (4/2)
  • Skeleton (2/2)
  • Skeletal Lord (3/1 disabled)
  • Crypt Crawler (3/1 disabled)
  • Orpal (4/3 lvl 6)

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 4
  • Disc: 3

Gold:

  • Gold: 6
  • Workers: 10
End of Turn Hand

Thieving Imp
Dark Pact
Necromancer
Summon Skeletons
Skeleton Javelineer

End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts

Have to wait a turn, but next turn I get the lockdown, no free speech or tower this time. Hopefully I can get to DnD
…
Ok got the dark pact and I have skeletons to work with

1 Like
175

I think I misread what you said, why do you think “Arrives or Exhausts” would be stronger than haste? Because you get to block also on the turn it hits the board? I’d argue that b/c haste, you’re giving Quince a juicy mirror target and that’s worth more than the one turn of blocking (he’s not a huge body…), but I spose maybe that’s debatable?

Also :point_left: your turn, this game is reaching a fun climax and I think I have it now that I’ve shut down the tower and the free speech, but I’m eager to see if that’s the case!

1 Like
176

I mistyped what I meant so you understood it correctly, I just made another brain booboo and sneakily went back to fix it :sweat_smile:

My point is that in the Blue vs Black match-up, Blue really struggles to patrol while teching up and slowing Black down. Law Tech II has even more limited options for patrolling, since 2/5 cards are a building and an expensive non-patroller. Against that kind of unit removal and aggro, the ability to disable something and still patrol gives you much more ability to stay in the game. While haste does gives Quince a potentially bigger turn, the gold cost isn’t really feasible if you’re fighting just to stay alive. In my view my version would be a weaker “win more” but a bigger comeback play. It’s also really on brand with the “choke you out and win at Tech III” style of Law.

In our game I can wipe all your units but as your heroes are invisible I can’t stifle your attack enough to stay alive, so you have my GG! It was a really good game and I was definitely in it right up until I lost Quince. Meta is still brutally strong, and Blue’s only real answers are Free Speech and Tech Lab + EotC, neither of which I can access this turn.

Some ideas, interested to hear your thoughts:

Card Change Thoughts
Arresting Constable Ability becomes “Arrives or :exhaust: → Disable a unit or hero” As above I think this is more consistent flavour and better for Blue vs Black
Jurisdiction Effect becomes “Attach to your Law Hero. Choose a spec. Attached hero gains that spec” Lets Bigby actually take Jurisdiction over the game. In particular, allows for continual casting of Free Speech.
Boot Camp Effect becomes: “Exhaust a unit or other hero and put a +1/+1 rune on it. Draw a card.” Allows Bigby to cast on Oni if he has my new Jurisdiction active. Means Orpal / Wither are less perma-neutering
2 Likes
177

GG WP! Indeed, Meta is still very strong, even when I can’t fetch it and you can lock Vandy down from attacking, Orpal and Garth maxbanding and demonizing is still very scary and tough to take down.

I hear this, maybe the haste is much more high ceiling / low floor and your proposed version is more evenly helpful.

I think this is worth trying

Interesting in theory, in practice I think it’s still too expensive to be very practical. Some questions:

  • Why attach and not Ongoing? I don’t think anything else in the game “attaches” to a hero does it?
  • Is it really so bad for it to be “Ongoing: Bigby can cast any spell as if it is his own.”, instead of having to choose a single spec?
  • Is your version allowing for Ultis? Or maybe it still has to be any non-ulti (I can see a lot of Ultis being an issue if you get two heroes to cast them or if they are cheaper b/c Bigby’s cheap to maxband)

Meh this doesn’t really seem worth. It does make me wonder though, why is Boot Camp-ing a buddy hero not more common? Seems like you could get Bigby, Quince, or in multi-color folks like Vandy / Sets super scary by just Boot Camp spamming them…

1 Like
178

The main reason it doesn’t get used much is the exhaust effect. It means you can’t play it from behind and still defend, and if you’re in front it doesn’t let you upscale your attack, only buff the other hero after they swing. For units its also generally fairly anti-synergy as Blue almost always trades units on the attack. Musketeer losing or raising the attack limit on Long Range would help. As would making Porky more playable.

The other reason is the targeting. That makes both Boot Camp and Elite training really anti-synergy with Illusions, which are generally the main units you want to attack with. They also can’t affect TD, who is one of the best starter cards, and they both remove Musketeer’s special effect when they buff him.

So yeah, its not that they are bad in theory, its just a synergy/opportunity cost and you desperately need units most of the time.

Yeah I think all that makes sense. So maybe the next changes to look at are:

Card Change(s) Thoughts
Arresting Constable Ability becomes “Arrives or :exhaust: → Disable a unit or hero” As per earlier discussion likely much stronger when coming from behind but less strong with Quince copying. Also more consistent flavour for Blue not having haste outside of Tech III, for what that’s worth
Jurisdiction Change type to “Ongoing Spell”, Effect becomes "Channeling. Your Law hero has all specs I think this wording avoids any weird interactions with Free Speech or Channeling. While still expensive for a card that doesn’t do anything on its own, it makes Free Speech a perpetual threat in the late game (so really strong for vs Black) and its a serious boost to Bigby’s utility for multicolour. Could also add +1 armour “The Law is my Shield” or one off card draw if it needs to have some immediate impact on the board state.
179

I like the idea to give this a little something extra, draw a card or +1 armor once would be really cool

You didn’t answer my question about ultis though. I think that might be too good.

How about we try

“Channeling. Bigby can cast any non-ultimate spell as if it was his own. When this is played, draw a card”

? I think that makes things pretty open to stalling better and forces me to diversify beyond just Meta I think

1 Like
180

Sorry, I had made it nearly that exact wording and then realised it potentially had a weird interaction with Free Speech (“can cast” vs “can’t cast”) so I changed it. On reflection maybe that’s not going to be an issue because the most recent effect takes precedent, and once you’re Free Speeched you’re not casting Jurisdiction.

I also kind of don’t like that he can’t keep a channeling spell running with your version unless he actually has those specs; “Sacrifice it if you lose your hero”

To avoid either, how about we invert the subject from Bigby to the spells:

Card Change(s)
Jurisdiction Type beomes “Ongoing Spell”, Effect becomes “Your non-ultimate, non-Law spells also have the Law spec. When this card is played, draw a card.”
1 Like
181

Interesting thought but yeah, I think it’s not a Free Speech beater for exactly that reason (that plus the “as if it were his own” means “can’t cast AT ALL” would take precedent, since Bigby can’t cast his own spells too.

You mean “if bigby casts, say, Behind the Ferns, and you don’t have Cala out (or lose her), BtF goes away”?

In that case, it’s more so Bigby needs to have Feral like the first suggestion, yea? Based on the wording of channeling, Sacrifice it if you lose your SPEC hero

Either way, I feel like the wording is clunky on the “spec adding” versions of this that’ve been proposed, and the questions / caveats are too confusing. I think it’s fine to miss out on the channeling spells, the only one in the mono color is Dreamscape and the only others in the whole game are Bird’s Nest and BtF, no? It’s a totally useful card with this change, even without hitting buddy heroes’ channeling spells

I think your first instinct was right to do the
Bigby can cast any non-ultimate spell as if it was his own. When this is played, draw a card
version. That’s a pretty unique and powerful effect. I don’t hate the simpler
Your law hero has all specs
so much though. I think maybe to make it clearer, combining the two into
Your law hero has all specs and can cast any spell as if it were his own
would work? That one gives Channeling a chance, and the former doesn’t. I think Bird’s Nest might be a problem then but it doesn’t matter for this matchup.

Why don’t you start us a new game w/ the Constable change and whichever of those wordings you prefer, as we agree the only difference between the two is the latter gives Channeling spells (dreamscape, in this case) a chance.

1 Like
182

Unless I’ve missed something, the only non-ultimate channeling spells in the game are are Two Step, Harmony, Behind the Ferns, Birds Nest and Dreamscape. So it isn’t a lot of spells we’re talking about and on reflection I think we try the simple version of Jurisdiction first and then go from there.

Test 6
Deteriorate Cost → 1g, Cannot target illusions
Dark Pact Cost → 1g
Vandy Midband Remove Resist 1, Cannot fetch Metamorphosis
Vandy Maxband Remove Targeting
Jurisdiction Ongoing Spell: Your Law hero can cast any non-ultimate spell. When this is played, draw a card
Guardian of the Gates If attacked, disable the attacker after combat
Arresting Constable Arrives or :exhaust: → Disable a unit or hero
1 Like