@FrozenStorm Hoping this testing bares fruit!
I think we should start with a minimal set of the worst offenders and progressively add in other forum changes as we feel necessary. My suggestion would be for:
| Nerfs | |
|---|---|
| Deteriorate | Cannot target illusions |
| Vandy Midband | Remove Resist 1, Cannot fetch Metamorphosis |
Do you want to test Black or Blue as P1 first?
I’ll play the Black side for now, we can swap after two games if you feel uncomfortable on blue
GL HF
P1 Black Prime (see thread OP) vs P2 Blue
Jandra, the Negator
Sacrifice the Weak
Skeleton Javelineer
Skeletal Archery
Pestering Haunt
Jandra, the Negator
Patrol as below
Base HP: 20
Squad Leader:
Elite:
Scavenger:
Technician:
Lookout:Deteriorate
Poisonblade Rogue
Summon Skeletons
Graveyard
Deteriorate w/o Illusions is really gonna make things nuts here, I think Vandy maxband and Orpal will become much more key. I’m thinking to play for Meta on Vandy/Orpal but we’ll see how it goes!
Sounds like a good plan 
I get to claim a moral victory if I have a hero survive turn 1 right? 
P2T1
STARTING HAND
Porkhand Magistrate → Worker
Bluecoat Musketeer
Manufactured Truth
Traffic Director
Reputable Newsman
WORKERS
Porkhand Magistrate
Jail
Spectral Aven
Arrest
Lawful Search
Building Inspector
Traffic Director
Bluecoat Musketeer
Manufactured Truth
Tech 0 card(s)
Get Paid - ($5)
Worker - ($4)
Reputable Newsman, choose 2 - ($2)
Quince, arrives with Mirror - ($0)
Float ($0)
Discard 3, draw 5
Board Info:
In Patrol:
Squad Leader: Mirror Illusion 0/1A Elite:
Scavenger: Reputable Newsman 0/3 [2]
Technician: Lookout:In Play:
Buildings:
Base HP: 20Economy Info:
Cards:
Gold:
The two main beneficiaries of the Deteriorate Nerf are Aven and Quince. Quince + Newsman keeps Quince alive to turn 2 at least, the main downside is zero attack so I can’t reduce Black’s board. It’s a new line worth exploring, so let’s start with that.
Like when I play green vs Black, 3g units are garbage, so even though I quite like the idea of Manufactured Porky to neuter Vandy, I think he has to be my worker here.
I certainly can’t stop you from doing so 
So just to be clear, I have 0 cost Deteriorate and Dark Pact?
P1 Black Prime (see thread OP) vs P2 Blue
Deteriorate
Poisonblade Rogue
Summon Skeletons
Graveyard
Dark Pact, Bone Collector
Poisonblade Rogue, Jandra, the Negator
Patrol as below Base HP: 20 Squad Leader: Elite: Scavenger: Technician: Lookout:Thieving Imp
Sacrifice the Weak
Skeletal Archery
Summon Skeletons
I expect to see Aven and Hounds or Flagbearer coming up, I’ll take graveyard and ping down newsman to 1hp so it can’t surprise be Aven. Empty open should be fine, if I get pig + MT for Vandy to die so be it
Yes both 0g, though I will almost certainly live to regret that decision!
As oppressive as those cards can be, I do think it makes sense test new Deteriorate with as few confounders as possible.
P2T2
TECH
Scribe
Spectral Hound
STARTING HAND
Spectral Aven
Building Inspector
Arrest → Worker
Lawful Search
Jail
WORKERS
Porkhand Magistrate
Arrest
Traffic Director
Spectral Hound
Bluecoat Musketeer
Manufactured Truth
Scribe
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + Scavenger - ($7)
Worker - ($6)
Tech I - ($5)
Building Inspector - ($4)
Quince makes 2xMirrors - ($0)
Float ($0)
Discard 3, reshuffle, draw 5
Board Info:
In Patrol:
Squad Leader: Mirror Illusion 0/1A Elite: Scavenger: Mirror Illusion 0/1 Technician: Reputable Newsman 0/1 [2] Lookout: Building Inspector 1/1 [Resist 1]In Play:
Buildings:
Base HP: 20 Tech I HP: 5Economy Info:
Cards:
Gold:
The most important thing here is to get Tech I up successfully so I can get good value units into play. I am obviously tempted to play Aven but I don’t think I have enough patrollers to protect it from StW yet and I’ll almost certainly lose Quince in the process. Alternatively I can spam Mirror Illusions and probably keep Quince another turn, while building up cards and gold. Only downside is that without a Tower I won’t be reducing his board. Jail would be a bad play simply because I can’t defend it, while Lawful Search would force an early reshuffle which I do not want without gold to actually play something I draw. I guess overall the Mirror spam seems acceptable. I just need to get some actual damage dealers or other disruption on board next turn.
Does seem like it’ll be helpful
P1 Black Prime (see thread OP) vs P2 Blue
Thieving Imp
Sacrifice the Weak
Skeletal Archery
Summon Skeletons
Sickness, Bone Collector
Dark Pact, Bone Collector
Summon Skeletons, Poisonblade Rogue, Jandra, the Negator
Patrol as below Base HP: 20 Squad Leader: Thieving Imp (2/2a) Elite: Scavenger: Technician: Lookout:Dark Pact
Bone Collector
Sacrifice the Weak
Soul Stone
2 mirrors seems expensive, still might be vulnerable to Aven MTruth but we’ll see how we do. Grabbing Sickness and another BC, skeletons and Orpal still seem very strong
Sorry for delay, I was best man at a wedding and didn’t have the time to do the thinking this game requires!
P2T3
TECH
Free Speech
Free Speech
STARTING HAND
Traffic Director → Discard
Manufactured Truth
Spectral Hound
Bluecoat Musketeer
Scribe
Scribe → Spectral Aven
WORKERS
Porkhand Magistrate
Arrest
Reputable Newsman
Lawful Search
Jail
Bluecoat Musketeer
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + Scavenger - ($8)
Scribe, I draw 1 card - ($6)
Spectral Hound - ($5)
Manufactured Truth, turn Newsman into NewsHound - ($4)
NewsHound trades with Imp
Quince kills Jav, takes 1
Quince makes 2x Mirrors - ($0)
Skip Worker
Float ($0)
Discard 2, draw 2, reshuffle, draw 2
Board Info:
In Patrol:
Squad Leader: Scribe 1/3A Elite: Scavenger: Mirror Illusion 0/1 Technician: Mirror Illusion 0/1 Lookout: Spectral Hound 3/3In Play:
Buildings:
Base HP: 20 Tech I HP: 5Economy Info:
Cards:
Gold:
Ok so let’s see, Haunt/Deteriorate means Newsman is already dead. Hound dies to Vandy doombuff which will also get him a 4 attack Imp. Even patrolling Quince, Tech II seems undefendable if he draws the top half of his options. I think I basically have to counter attack with MT to make a NewsHound to trade into the Imp, then I can use Quince to kill Haunt/Jav. Probably Jav since that’s a unit he can doombuff.
Vandy is still really scary, her maxband can pop Hound, so I don’t want that in SQL. Lookout probably makes sense to try and cost out maxband+Imp. Scribe in SQL seems ok but I’ll need to make a Mirror to protect against StW. If I skip a worker and make 2x Mirrors Quince survives, short of him teching Sickness. I guess that’s fairly likely now but I don’t really have a defense. Let’s go Free Speechx2 and hope he’s not pivoting to Orpal quite this early.
No worries! NOTE I screwed up my card counts, I had a card in worker pile by accident. RS and drew 3 again, 3 in deck, hopefully that doesn’t change your decisions at all but I can redo turn if so.
P1 Black Prime (see thread OP) vs P2 Blue
Dark Pact
Sacrifice the Weak
Deteriorate
Bone Collector
BC + Archery (DP)
Soul Stone, Crypt Crawler
Sickness, Bone Collector
Dark Pact, Bone Collector
Skeletal Archery, Summon Skeletons, Poisonblade Rogue, Jandra, the Negator
Patrol as below Base HP: 20 Squad Leader: Bone Collector (3/3a) Elite: Orpal (1+1/3 lvl 1) Scavenger: Technician: Bone Collector (3/3) Lookout:Sickness
Sacrifice the Weak
Dark Pact
Another two mirrors, very expensive, and I can’t quite get at that darn Hound… Didn’t dig up the Sickness. But that’s fine, double BC should be pretty good defense. Keeping the skeleton back and Orpal out front to try and keep the graveyard up
Apologies, just been mobbed all week at work. I’ll get a turn up later today
P2T4
TECH
Overeager Cadet
Flagstone Garrison
STARTING HAND
Jail
Lawful Search
Reputable Newsman
Bluecoat Musketeer → Worker
Free Speech
WORKERS
Porkhand Magistrate
Arrest
Bluecoat Musketeer
Building Inspector
Free Speech
Free Speech
Spectral Aven
Manufactured Truth
Scribe
Overeager Cadet
Flagstone Garrison
Lawful Search
Reputable Newsman
Jail
Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($7)
Worker - ($6)
Midband Quince - ($4)
Turn Mirrors into Bone Collectors - ($0)
Quince pings armour off SQL Collector, takes 3
1st Faux Collector trades with SQL Collector and makes a Skeleton
2nd Faux Collector trades with Technician Collector and makes a Skeleton, you draw
Hound kills Orpal, takes -2/-2, Quince to Maxband
Float ($0)
Discard 3, draw 5
Board Info:
In Patrol:
Squad Leader: Skeleton 1/1A Elite: Scavenger: Technician: Skeleton 1/1 Lookout:In Play:
Buildings:
Base HP: 20 Tech I HP: 5Economy Info:
Cards:
Gold:
His board is getting crazy so I need to take some of that away and then pivot to Tech II. Important to take away two units to keep Graveyard relatively full. A bit worried I messed up my Tech choices now but I thought he was going hard for meta, hence the double Free Speech. Perhaps I’m just still not adjusted to nerfed Vandy. Peace for Garrisons makes by far the most sense for me here, might be worth trying a Dreamscape/Sergeant gattling gun if I can get the Garrisons up. Overall probably best to get just the one now and add a Cadet. Feeling short on decent units.
S’all good, that was me the last two days getting ready to go on vacation!
P1 Black Prime (see thread OP) vs P2 Blue
Sickness
Sacrifice the Weak
Dark Pact
Deteriorate (techn)
Cursed Ghoul, Medusa
Soul Stone, Crypt Crawler
Sickness, Bone Collector
Dark Pact, Bone Collector
Skeletal Archery, Summon Skeletons, Poisonblade Rogue, Jandra, the Negator
Patrol as below Base HP: 16 Squad Leader: Crypt Crawler (3/3a) Elite: Scavenger: Technician: Lookout: Bone Collector (3/3)Medusa
Cursed Ghoul
Dark Pact
Sacrifice the Weak
Deteriorate
More mirror stuff, expensive, but low defense. I could kill Quince or the tech 1 with a big Vandy play but I think better to stay board and tech advantaged, dig up the crawler, lay two large bodies in case of Mind Control, and prepare a Meta gambit that’s really threatening. Meantime Disease is a good buddy to that plan for the versatility and anti-Illusions. Next turn most likely Garth + Orpal + max Vandy or cards if they get a big enough advantage
Oooh nice! Where you off to?
P2T5
TECH
Overeager Cadet
Flagstone Garrison
STARTING HAND
Spectral Aven
Building Inspector
Free Speech
Manufactured Truth
Free Speech
Technician → Traffic Director
WORKERS
Porkhand Magistrate
Arrest
Bluecoat Musketeer
Lawful Search
Overeager Cadet
Flagstone Garrison
Reputable Newsman
Manufactured Truth
Tech 2 card(s)
Technician Draw
Get Paid - ($8)
Skip Worker
Tech II Peace - ($4)
Traffic Director - ($3)
Building Inspector - ($2)
Free Speech - ($0)
Float ($0)
Discard 3, reshuffle, draw 5
Board Info:
In Patrol:
Squad Leader: Traffic Director 1/1A [Untargetable] Elite: Spectral Hound 2/1 [–] Scavenger: Building Inspector 1/1 Technician: L5 Sirius Quince 1/5 Lookout:In Play:
*
Buildings:
Base HP: 20 Tech I HP: 2 Tech II HP: 5 (Peace)Economy Info:
Cards:
Gold:
Tech up, Free Speech, fill my patrol, hope I live to get Garrisons a-goin
Tampa, FL. Went to the beach yesterday, despite getting spf 100 lotion all over and reapplying to my face and neck, I’m still hella sunburnt everywhere 
P1 Black Prime (see thread OP) vs P2 Blue
Sickness
Sacrifice the Weak
Dark Pact
Deteriorate (techn)
Cursed Crow, Shadow Blade
Cursed Ghoul, Gorgon
Soul Stone, Crypt Crawler
Sickness, Bone Collector
Dark Pact, Bone Collector
Dark Pact, Skeletal Archery, Summon Skeletons, Poisonblade Rogue, Jandra, the Negator
Patrol as below Base HP: 16 Squad Leader: Elite: Scavenger: Technician: Skeleton (1/1) Lookout:Sickness
Soul Stone
Sacrifice the Weak
Shadow Blade
Tech 2 Peace and a formidable defense, if I had Plague Lab this would be even more amazing, but I’ll settle for breaking the tech 2 and overwhelming the board 
Think this is mine to lose now
I expect to be conceding after your next turn, and nearly did here, but lets give you the satisfaction of taking our your sunburn on me! After I’ve been smited we can dissect the game.
P2T6
TECH
Drill Sergeant
Drill Sergeant
STARTING HAND
Overeager Cadet
Manufactured Truth
Lawful Search
Reputable Newsman
Flagstone Garrison
Technician - Free Speech
WORKERS
Porkhand Magistrate
Arrest
Bluecoat Musketeer
Manufactured Truth
Overeager Cadet
Spectral Aven
Jail
Flagstone Garrison
Free Speech
Traffic Director
Spectral Hound
Building Inspector
Drill Sergeant
Drill Sergeant
Overeager Cadet
Lawful Search
Free Speech
Tech 2 card(s)
Technician Draw
Get Paid + Scavenger - ($9)
Rebuild Tech I
Worker - ($8)
Quince and Mirror - ($6)
Make a second Mirror - ($4)
Newsman, choose 2 - ($2)
Bigby - ($0)
Float ($0)
Discard 3, draw 5
Board Info:
In Patrol:
Squad Leader: Mirror 0/1A Elite: L1 Bigby Hayes 3/3 [Stash 1] Scavenger: Reputable Newsman 0/3 [2] Technician: L1 Sirius Quince 1/3 Lookout: Mirror 0/1 [Resist 1]In Play:
*
Buildings:
Base HP: 20 Tech I HP: 5 Tech II HP: 5 (Peace)Economy Info:
Cards:
Gold:
Forgot about sparkshot but it wouldn’t have mattered much. Too many 1HP 0ATK units in my plans to reduce his board. I’m almost certainly dead but I guess we get fully wrecked before we quit
I think I’m one shy of lethal with Shadow Blade, Sickness and Soul Stone plus Vandy maxband, but it’s an easy double tech break with no board loss other than whatever I Doom, so I think it’s a safe GG
No deteriorate for illusions definitely helps a lot but I think it still needs to cost 1, same as dark pact. Bone collectors are still wicked strong and you did a nice job taking advantage of that with mirrors, but those are still really expensive for early game. Disease continues to be underrated as a Swiss army knife tech2 and nasty hero
Yeah, I figured I would be entirely on the ropes even if not technically dead yet.
100% agree on Dark Pact / Deteriorate, it was perhaps a bit too ambitious to think this one change would counteract the overtuning of vanilla black but I’m still glad to have the datapoint.
From my side it felt like I started to lose board due to both the 2g cost of the Mirrors and their 0 attack. I was spending gold for chump blockers that didn’t damage your board at all. Vandy sparkshot meant I couldn’t use the Elite slot safely and I never felt like I was in a position to build a Tower and actually defend it due to the gold expense.
That said, I don’t think I was far away from stabilising and I suspect that line with either 1/1 or 1g mirrors would see P2 Blue getting to a defensible Tech II up and running. Something we can maybe come back to if 1g Deteriorate / Dark Pact doesn’t get us anywhere
| Test 2 Nerfs | |
|---|---|
| Deteriorate | Cost → 1g, Cannot target illusions |
| Dark Pact | Cost → 1g |
| Vandy Midband | Remove Resist 1, Cannot fetch Metamorphosis |
It’s probably best if we do it MMM style and I stick with P2 Blue for now. I think that’s where we need to see the most win rate improvement anyway.
Works for me, I’ll try to start another game tomorrow
Thanks for waiting, getting back into work this week was a lot
GL HF!
P1 Black Prime Take 2 (see link below) vs P2 Blue
Take 2 Nerfs to Black: Det and DP to 1, No Illusions, No Meta Fetch
Summon Skeletons
Poisonblade Rogue
Jandra, the Negator
Deteriorate
Sacrifice the Weak
Poisonblade Rogue
Patrol as below Base HP: 20 Squad Leader: Elite: Scavenger: Technician: Lookout:Skeletal Archery
Graveyard
Thieving Imp
Skeleton Javelineer
Pestering Haunt
Opposite of a killer hand this game lol, might be a little hard to tell vs the last game where I drew the nuts, still Det and DP really need to cost 1. Sickness I think still a good tech, maybe Newsman does work against it and Soul Stone for Jandra though. That’ll be a little interesting
No worries at all, I had a mental busy week so it worked out nicely for both of us!
P2T1
STARTING HAND
Lawful Search
Arrest
Bluecoat Musketeer → Worker
Manufactured Truth
Spectral Aven
WORKERS
Bluecoat Musketeer
Building Inspector
Jail
Traffic Director
Porkhand Magistrate
Reputable Newsman
Manufactured Truth
Lawful Search
Arrest
Tech 0 card(s)
Get Paid - ($5)
Worker - ($4)
Spectral Aven - ($2)
Oni - ($0)
Float ($0)
Discard 3, draw 5
Board Info:
In Patrol:
Squad Leader: General Onimaru 2/3A [Frenzy 1] Elite: Scavenger: Spectral Aven 2/2 [Flying] Technician: Lookout:In Play:
*
Buildings:
Base HP: 20Economy Info:
Cards:
Gold:
A terrible split for aggro but at least I can get Oni on the board. I assume he’ll have StW to clear Aven but that leaves him with 2 gold after paying for Tech I. Was almost tempted to play Bigby and stash Arrest for next turn, that might be an interesting alternative line for this split but I think we need to go for big Oni plays.
poke, friendly reminder action is to you