I have to say that I’m not overly fond of this new counter because of how it impacts Quince’s match up with Arg. I’m not sure it’s a problem but it does weaken Quince’s vortex since it severely disincentivizes him playing either of his abilities during Positive Spin and Patriot Mirror turns. Overall, I think this change might make the MU Arg-favored because of how it would skew the match towards the neutral, which favors Arg.
It’s intended to only KD abilities that have “during combat” as their timing, like Gloria’s J.
But that makes me wonder, what about Rooks special blocks? Can Arg now attack with a 2 or 4 in neutral, KD Rook if he revealed a special block, and get a free cross up?
Other way around; [During Combat] abilities give their user a card, other abilities have the card moved to the bottom of the deck and get knocked down.
The more I look at this, though, the less I like it. I no longer think that it will solve more problems than it seems to be causing, both in terms of matchups and rules. It’s also indisputably less elegant, since before it just gave everyone a card and put most ability cards on the bottom of their user’s deck, whereas now we’re getting confusion over what happens to people when they play their cards because of how complicated it is. I think Arg’s counter is either fine as it is, or if it needs changed this is the wrong approach.
Edit: beaten to it by @hobusu
Yeah I’m about halfway through the cast trying to figure out what I though it would mean for their match-up with Arg. It was around Quince that I started to think it might be too good.
…wait, so why is this being touted as a benefit to Arg vs Gloria?? Isn’t J’s ability during combat? I’m so confused…
I can’t help but wonder the same thing, to be honest…!
Just so it doesn’t get lost, here’s how it was most recently drafted:
I say scrap this boondoggle and start again.
Gloria’s J is end of combat otherwise she could return the same J and combo into it
Edit: I should add that its fair for everyone to be confused about this because its the only ability that works this way. I’m also probably one of the few people pedantic enough to demand this sort of timing specificity in my games.
Because I still have nearly half the thread to read through since this blew up (not complaining) I’m going to drop two ideas here then go back up.
Have glimpse of the dragon draw a 2 instead of just a card. Essentially 8 ranks of dragon form without being as boring has putting dragon form on another card. Now it is a true glimpse of what is to come!
+1 throw damage on persphone’s throws. She has a ton of pitfalls for balancing, so this is meant to increase her consistency without changing her dynamics. Further changes should only be explored after more pressing changes to other characters have been tested imo.
Good thinking all around, should have known it wouldn’t be easy to implement! That said, humor me in going a little further with it because as I see it there’s one major issue with the version we’ve been proposing that can be fixed pretty neatly. I think this is worth looking into since it could significantly help 3+ skewed matchups and make Arg’s counter more interactive.
What MJ mentions here is the real issue with the ability - it adds a whole bunch of new KD timings that are more trouble than they’re worth to manage. So, the solution is to make it so the ability can only KD during traditional timings. In the current game, KD can occur at the end of a combo (most common), and also during the draw phase from War Stomp. So those two timings are already ironed out rules-wise. Here’s a version that solves this problem:
10* Crash and Flow [Reaction]
Once per turn, counter an ability and that player draws a card. If it was played during the draw phase, put it on the bottom of their deck and knock down the opponent.
Now the ability can only KD during draw phase, which is A-okay since Troq can already do so. It ensures the original purpose of the “put it on the bottom of their deck” wording still applies since it sends Gloria and Perse 10 to deck so they can’t recur. Lum-Arg is much better because he can stockpile abilities to take advantage of Arg’s once per turn counter limit (especially when combined with the Jackpot change which also helps Lum-DeGrey). Rook-Arg is better if combined with having special blocks revert to normal blocks. Arg-Gloria is a bit better because she’s put on her back during combat when Arg counters Sphere. The once per turn limit matters less vs. Gloria since her Jacks recur ensuring Arg will get good value from his counters later.
So that’s 3+ skewed matchups improved, no new KD timings, and a more interactive Arg counter. Seems worth considering!
I don’t want it to seem like I don’t care about 2v2, I actually think it’s really cool! If a new ability wouldn’t work in 2v2 that’s more than enough reason to scrap it on the spot imo. I simply don’t have a good understanding of 2v2 rules so usually defer to others to correct ability wording to suit 2v2. I believe that the wording I used above is just as clear as Troq’s War Stomp and current Crash & Flow. I used “knock down the opponent” for the Crash part, just like Troq’s War Stomp, with the intention of making it clear that it is the active player who is knocked down even if the benched player used the ability. I used “that player” for the Flow part, just like current Crash & Flow, intending to make it clear that whoever used the countered ability (whether that’s the benched or active player) draws the card.
That wording is definitely improved over the other versions, I’ll give you that! I don’t know Arg’s matchups enough to say anything about whether this would be better for the health of the game than his current counter, but if any change along these lines gets made it should be with this wording or something very close to it.
My complaint about the 2v2 thing was just because I’ve brought up “how does this work in 2v2” before, and every time I’ve brought it up no one even acknowledged that I’d said anything… It looks like you’ve covered all the bases, though! The one bit I’d been uncertain about was how Snapbacks would interact with it, but now that I have a chance to look at the rulebook:
You can force the opposing team to tag using a snapback. If the opposing active character would ever be knocked down, your team’s active player may discard a card. If they do, the opposing active character is forced to switch out and their partner switches in, becoming active. The knockdown move still does damage to the outgoing character as usual but the incoming character is not knocked down.
This sounds to me like War Stomp (and by extension, your version of Crash and Flow) could allow you to perform a Snapback if used during the Draw Phase.
This feels like such a big change for a character that is already in mostly a good place. How does this impact Quince-Arg, Grave-Arg, Perse-Arg, Gwen-Arg, etc etc etc. I dunno. It seems really hard to evaluate without a lot of testing.
“How does this impact 2v2” is at the very bottom of my priorities, personally. Sorry. Especially since, I would assume, nobody here has any idea what the meta of that game is in v2. Maybe Southpaw Hare, but I’d be surprised even then.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t care about balance for 2v2, like, at all, for the reason you said. I just want to make sure that people can play it without having to say “wait, how does that work?”
2v2 meta analysis can be the next pie-in-the-sky after getting 1v1 AI meta analysis working.
This is fair. Given the goals of making Lum-Arg better and making Arg’s counter more interactive without harming Rook-Arg and Arg-Gloria, I think this is about as good as it gets. For Lum, +1 throw damage is busted imo and I think +1 pump would mostly just buff his lategame burst damage which is already high in general and help him less vs. Arg/DeGrey where he needs efficient throw damage throughout the game.
In the transition to V2, Grave’s counter was changed to make it more interactive (and to nerf Grave cuz he was super strong in V1) and I think that even disregarding balance that change has made playing as and against Grave more fun. I think the most recently proposed Crash & Flow change has a good chance to do the same for Arg and I think it doesn’t affect his matchup advantages/disadvantages nearly as much as some people think. But I’m certainly wrong a lot! You’re definitely right that it would need a lot of testing.
Wait, why do we want to give Arg efficient throw damage? And why do we want to help him vs. DeGrey?
I think you’ll find they were talking about Lum there.
By 3 and 4 damage per throw respectively though. I’m not saying Lum’s throws are bad in the lategame, but this doesn’t seem like a change on the other of “every Arg MU changing drastically.”
I mean, his throw damage is never going to be more efficient, because of the nature of his throws. They’re as efficient lategame as they are midgame, assuming he manages his hand size.
Okay, are we now trying to balance matchups that should by the nature of the characters be imbalanced? I mean, don’t we WANT Lum/DeGrey to be DeGrey favored?