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Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)


#1

Balance changes to games are some of my favorite discussions to have when it comes to games. Since there is no thread for Yomi on this topic I thought I’d start one. Below are my v3 wishlist changes or just ideas I want to throw out there. Please comment and give feedback on my list plus present your own if you’d like.

:grave:

TPoS - reduce damage from 45 to 40

Thoughts: I’m not sure what Grave’s current win rate is but last time I checked it was kind of low (it might be up now?), so I could definitely see no changes happening to Grave in v3. However, people still moaned about TPoS. Double however, TPoS at 40 damage would still be strong and it would help prevent the newb trap of playing super hard to land TPoS at all cost.

:jaina:

Knee Bash - Increase pump damage from 4 to 5

Flame arrow - increase speed from 2.6 to 2.2 (pew pew)

Potentially swap the abilities on 7 and T

Thoughts: Knee Bash isn’t so exciting and Jaina could use the extra early throw damage vs certain characters. When playing Jaina I feel like I have no good way to build up my hand.

She has so few blocks and her early game recurring attacks are average to slow speed and when they clash they lose pretty bad (especially if you’re buying them back). Making J a viable early game spam card could open up her hand building a lot. In addition, it has the added benefit of making her feel more liker her FSFG counterpart. It might seem too good at first but keep in mind that it only gives Jaina a net life lead of 3 on hit and 2 on block (if she buys it back).

Jaina’s win rate is quite low (possibly the lowest?). So I could also see giving her the buff of switching her abilities. This would increase her power quite a bit if she had free access to her 7 throw while putting the ability in the discard. And then sticking a strong ability on her worst throw.

:midori:

Increase HP from 90 to 95

Change 9 from a throw/dodge into a block/dodge

T draws a card when the ability is used

Thoughts: Midori needs grappler level HP.

Midori can get some really funky hands, probably the funkiest in game. Giving him another block will help a lot in alleviating the funk.

I believe it was ntillerman that came up with the T draw idea and I like it quite a bit. It will allow Midori to both be offensive and scare offense when he needs to with out killing his hand. Will help him in mu where his preferred block/throw range doesn’t work.

:setsuki:

no change

Thoughts: Imo Setsuki is in a good place.

:rook:

3 works on jokers
3 and 5 now hit the opponent

Thoughts: Rook is too soft to gold burst. 3 and 5 hitting the opponent will help in two of his hardest mu

:degrey:

Innate no longer works on AA

Thoughts: Degrey has come full circle. He does a truck ton of damage and his dodge is better then ever in v2. He would still be good with out the extra damage to aces.

:valerie:

Add this ability to K - If this wins combat draw a card. Counts as a normal for straights.

Thoughts: Valerie probably gets the second funkiest hands in the game. Giving her more normals will help with that.

:geiger:

decrease J speed from 2.4 to 2.6
Lose TD if hit by Gold Burst

Thoughts: Mwahahaha. In addition, Geiger has a devastating late game. He doesn’t need a crushing early game.

Losing TD on GB will help characters that struggle vs him.

Possibly too weak now? but there are several characters who get so crushed by both portions of his game that it feels justifyable.

:lum:

?

Thoughts: I want to give him a change that mainly helps him vs Arg but doesn’t increase his power in other mu too much. Not sure what to do. Making T uncounterable has been suggested before but don’t know how much that will affect Grave and Perse.

:argagarg:

no change

Thoughts: Curse the fish. Arg is a solid character and has been shown to do really well when the top 4 characters are removed so nerfs to them would put Arg in a good place (maybe too good).

:quince:

Add Draw a card to T

Thoughts: Even with all of Quince’s current card draw he can still run out of gas fairly easy (at least this is what I’ve noticed when playing against Quince’s). Giving him a little more draw by letting T auto replace itself should help with that.

:onimaru:

Change 6 from a attack/block to a named throw/block
-6 throw Some Oni themed name
8+4+4 (any 2) damage speed 8.8

Thoughts: Oni is a really strong character if it weren’t for the fish and lawyer giving him more throws would greatly help in these mu. This might make him too good and could require nerfs to other areas if testing showed him to be too strong.

:bbb:

Add to innate - Something that allows him consistent access to face cards (K most importantly)

Thoughts: So I don’t know how it should work atm but BBB needs to have his face cards more consistently with K being by far the most important. This could be a power up for K or getting range lets you retrieve face cards from the discard or some other thing that lets him get K/face cards. I think it should be a discard retrieval so powering up for face cards can be a Menelker thing only.

:troq:

T can only be used once per turn
J losses it’s ability
decrease AA speed from 1.0 to 1.2
Decrease AAA damage from 45 to 40

Thoughts: These are some pretty common Troq change suggestions. Limiting War Stomp to once per turn stops him from having Menelker like discard.

J losing its ability helps in several mu.

The changes to his aces are common requests and just lowers the overall power level of a really strong character.

:menelker:

Change innate to: Whenever you hit an opponent with a face card attack (even multiple times in a combo) draw a card. If the attack is black the opponent discards a card. Powering up for black face cards remains the same.

DSD damage decreased from 55 to 45
Dragon Breath speed decreased from 1.2 to 1.4

Thoughts: Menelker is another tricky one because his power level shots up a lot if the top four characters aren’t around. He might be a no change character. However, if he needs changes I like the idea of all his face cards drawing cards so he doesn’t run out of steam and so his Red face cards don’t feel so lame to draw.

His Aces are nerfed because of increased card flow.

:persephone:

Add to innate - At start of game draw 10 cards and discard 3.

Potentially increase HP from 75 to 80

Thoughts: I’ve heard the draw and discard innate before and I really like the sound of it. It helps with several of Perse’s problems. It lessons the slowness of her start and the awkwardness of her opening plays and lets her due stuff more quickly. It helps with her lack of card draw a little bit as well.

75 health doesn’t give her much time to get her game really going. 80 health could help with that. It’s possible that the addition to her innate makes increased health not needed.

:gloria:

?

Thoughts: Gloria is a funky puzzle box that I don’t even begin to know how to tweak without upsetting things drastically. Will leave this one to the Gloria pros.

:gwen:

Q damage increased from 6+4 to 8+4
?

Thoughts: Another one I just don’t know about. I don’t have a lot of experience with the Greyson girls.

:vendetta:

Change Acrobatics to allow for any card to be discarded, not just dodges
increase speed on 3 from 3.2 to 2.2

Thoughts: Effectively giving Ven more dodges allows him to better deal with characters with lots of fast attacks.

Ven in a lot of mu is super reliant on 2. Just give him 100% more 2.

:zane:

Change Slipstream Phase from damage 19 to 15 and from speed 1.2 to 1.0
Change Maximum Anarchy chip from 5 to 0 and it gains a self titled ability - If you play MA and it doesn’t hit you lose the game.

HP from 85 to 83

Some change to make K less good (maybe Zane takes 10 when it’s blocked)

Thoughts: Slipstream Phase is changed to make the mirror more playable. Its damage is reduced because of the increased speed and for potential (with innate) to only have to use one ace from hand.

MA is now a weirdo trickshot. Maybe still too good?

HP change because his HP should end in 3

K is supposed to be a bad reversal but it is a great reversal. There are very few attacks that K is sad about trading into. There should be a better way to punish K. Right now it is too free.

The scars of Zane make me worried that he would still be too good.


Well that is my current list of changes/ideas. What do you think and what does your v3 change wishlist look like?


#2

I think this change is effectively worthless, it has 2 main results

  1. Her 0.0 option does 2 more damage which is irrelevant, if you’re revealing Q instead of one of your many, many other fast combo starter options it’s because you’re afraid of a MU specific option 2 damage isn’t going to effect that decision
  2. Slightly more card efficient combo ender / dodge followup, card efficiency just isn’t really a problem she has

Gwen’s problems are almost entirely related to survivability if you want to give her a change that matters you either

  1. Give her 5-10 more health (Boring but at least a little effective)
  2. Significantly buff her 10 block ability (My personal preference) by either making it far more effective healing 10/12 health or make it return to the hand upon successful activation
  3. Have her self-damage turn off after a point either by preventing it from being able to kill her or having it turn off when she drops below a certain health threshold

This still leaves it as being unreasonably stronger than all equivalent 3 ace supers imo
i’d put it down to 35 or remove it’s comboabiltiy or something

These changes are great but I’d give them all up for a way to fetch a 2 from my deck in an instant [quote=“ClanNatioy, post:1, topic:2074”]
:setsuki:

no change
[/quote]

Setsuki is fine I agree with this, I’m glad we all agree Setsuki is fine[quote=“ClanNatioy, post:1, topic:2074”]
:bbb:

Add to innate - Something that allows him consistent access to face cards (K most importantly)
[/quote]

YES YES YES

That’s a really good buff I worry if it’s too much but it definitely makes the mirror less silly

I like taking away the chip on this, he loses some checkmates but he can still perform them sort of with K but with significant potential risk
I hate that ability and think it has no place in the game, I would be in favor of making MA 0.3 speed and nerfing the damage though

Yes absolutely it always bugged me that this wasn’t the case

I’m not sure if this really matters, the problem with K as a reversal imo is that it’s not only a great reversal but it’s a great reversal that gives a knockdown that leads into meaties. Maybe a better answer would be to take away the knockdown if it’s ability activates


#3

yeah most likely. I just didn’t know what to do with her. Buffing her T sounds good though. An idea to her T that I like is that it turns off her innate the turn she plays it so she still has effective mixups with it when she is at very low life.

I mean that’s kind of Graves deal, to have really good aces. He don’t think he has the winrate to warrant such a nerf.

I’m not sure how much power up for certain card effects the designer wants in the game, but I’m guessing very few. Either way I’ve had a lot more Midori games messed up by funky starting hands then by not drawing a two through the course of a game.

Now I just need to see Valerie from behind to see who wins the award of most fine. Persephone has a chance at the award if I’m in the right mood.

The whole thing with MA is, as far as I understand, it is supposed to be this odd ball attack that isn’t often played for. Currently this is not the case and just slowing it down will help in mu where characters can outspeed it but I’d imagine it would still be played for a lot at speed 0.3.

Yeah I wasn’t sure what I wanted done to K but I know I want something. Your idea could be interesting. Could that be worded on the card with out sounding too funky?


#4

One thing I forgot to mention is that the MA changes you suggested also have zero effect on its use as a dodge followup and when you’re nerfing the damage on some of the other big supers that seems like an odd choice


#5

True, it definitely changes the mix up for Zane but it’s nice to know that Zane has a lot of incentive to play the dodge/throw game so you can play accordingly. As opposed to worrying that the mix up is pretty evenly split between all three options. I could also see the damage on it being nerfed.

and my Zane is possibly still good. Would have to play to know for sure.


#6

What about if it gets Jokered off a dodge?


#7

The way ClanNatioy worded it the ability wouldn’t trigger, jokering something ONLY removes damage and a 0 damage hit still counts as a hit

This is how jaina’s unstable power currently works


#8

Yeah, right. I wonder if that is the best way to handle it though. I don’t know though, not like this is ever going to come to anything.


#9

In general, I feel your suggestions err on the benefit for cautious players. I am a cautious player myself, so I understand many of the suggestions, but I don’t feel that they would necessarily make the game better.

I’ll quote the ones I disagree with.

Having this be 2.2 seems too much. Maybe have it at 2.4, it still makes sense to use this over K, due to the added chip. But I don’t think it should crowd the 2.2 space.

I strongly disagree. While I have had a crazy hand with Valerie plenty of times, I still agree with MadKing that she is probably one of the best characters in the game, having good matchups with all of the top cast. While Valerie doesn’t have any explicit card-drawing skills, saving up normals to get aces, and using aces to draw cards, is already good at cyceling her hand, and giving her additional options is not really needed in my opinion.

You are the BBB player here, but I don’t think this is a good change. BBB already has a good way of consistently accessing his face cards from range. Making his face cards even more safe - instead of having to treat them like a resource - is a change I don’t agree with.

Having Acrobatics work with any card just makes it too strong. He would end up way to safe and risk free.

I don’t like this one, especially with the draw 10 discard 3 being in play.[quote=“ClanNatioy, post:1, topic:2074”]
Change Maximum Anarchy chip from 5 to 0 and it gains a self titled ability - If you play MA and it doesn’t hit you lose the game.
[/quote]
The reason it is being played so much is the damage. Unless the damage is nerfed, the attack will still get played. Any of the supers out there that are 40+ is being played for their damage, bust damage is just so extremely good.


#10

Yep he would :slight_smile:

About the TPoS I would personnally not nerf it : it’s his main signature and he would loose much flavour.
But his character ability is long to read and particularly unfun, I’d change it for something simpler such as :
Block a special attack : draw 2 cards
or
Block : heal 5 hp

Else, I completely agree with your ideas on Onimaru, Troq and Ven ! :stuck_out_tongue:
IMO, Quince only needs a buff against Geiger and I don’t see anything else than buffing AA (giving it the ability to make the opponent discard 2 cards for example ?)


#11

I tried to buff Quince vs Geiger by nerfing Geiger. 2.6 speed J would allow Quince to clash even with his own J and start the spin cycle. Gold Burst getting rid of TD would help him as well.

I actually enjoy Grave’s current innate a lot. The turns were it is in effect are fun. The fact that people are afraid of running attacks into his blocks (it gives him so many cards) makes it harder to trigger in the first place though.

It’s got to be 2.2 or nothing, I want maximum pew pew. Jaina should be the fireball queen. At 2.4 it would trade too poorly with all other fireballs to make it not worth playing in a lot of mu.

I disagree with most of this. Her hands can get too funky to be able to consistently preform well. Getting hands filled with throws and face cards is pretty common which doesn’t give her very much to work with. I don’t think she does particularly well vs the top 4.

It could be possible that a K with this additional ability should be a little weaker on damage.

The thing is he has to draw them first and for K he needs at least two. If BBB draws 1 (or less :frowning: ) in a game he is hard pressed to get to range. He can’t use his only K to get to range because once the opponent stands back up he wont have his mix up. having a way to get K from discard is the main thing I care about.

Would be funny if he went full Midori and got “if you block an attack or joker at range retrieve a non-joker card from the discard” lol.

That was for the Ven players asking for more dodges and me disagreeing that J should have a dodge on it.

Fair enough. The goal was to make it feel kooky. Maybe making it have to do damage or lose (as questioned by snoc) would give it maximum levels of kooky.


#12

Maximum anarchy should be 0.1 speed not 0.3.


#13

@neigutten
If you don’t like discard fetching face powers for BBB what do you think of one of these potential puffs:

Give him Defense Mastery

Thoughts: I’ve suggested this one before but will state it again for possible feedback. Well help him get to range vs characters with lots of fast attacks because they wont be able to spam fast normals and grow their hand. They will have to risk block. On the other hand this might be too oppressive. Has the upside of only needing to change one card.

Increase throw speed from x.4 to x.2

Thoughts: I’m not sure if this has ever been suggested but I just thought of it recently. It will only effect mu he currently losses which is good. It wont really affect his worst mus (will have a bit of affect on Lum) which isn’t great. But it could bring his overall numbers up a bit. The downside is it would be 4 ranks of changed cards.


#14

I think moving defense mastery from Troq to BBB is totally fine. (Or just having it be on BBB as well). You list the concerns about it perfectly, but to me, that is the type of change I’d like over easy access to high value cards like the face cards. Changes that makes it easier to spam things are not what I would like in general.


#15

This is a bit pedantic, but, to be consistent with the graphic design, giving a character defense mastery would technically require changing all their blocks to have the little “+” on it that Midori, Rook, and Troq currently have on their blocks.


#16

Hey. How about having Zanes J have the ability text (If this is the last card in a combo, this knocks down) instead of having it be a literal KD thing? Grave, Arg and Persephone would be better, but that might not have much of an impact.


#17

Based on the wording of Jaina’s innate, winning combat with an attack and not following up counts as a combo. Thus, your wording doesn’t currently change anything unless I’m misunderstanding something (since revealing and winning with J would be using it as the last card in a 1-card combo).


#18

It makes it so that Zane doesn’t have as many knock downs against characters with counters, which again helps with meaties.


#19

Ah, right! Being able to counter would be the one difference. Doesn’t change a lot of matchups, but maybe that’s the point?


#20

It might influence the carousel a bit at least, making the “relevant characters” expand from revolving around Zane, especially since Grave would end up being a better match against Zane.