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Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)


#589

I want to love this. But I think this is a pretty big buff for Arg in any MU where the opponent has Draw Phase abilities, since this would allow Arg to get a free knockdown right before combat cards need to be selected. This undoubtedly helps Arg in MUs (such as Midori, Grave, BBB, Jaina) where Arg already enjoys an advantage. (I think this change would have the biggest effect on the Midori MU, changing it from Arg-advantaged to Arg-dominated.) Arg has a fairly good mix up normal game with x.4 speed attacks, and he also loves using chip damage in addition to Hex damage on knockdown turns to set up checkmate scenarios.

I’m not gonna say definitively either way, but this seems pretty strong for Arg.

I will say, assuming War Stomp does not get changed, I do love the idea of countering War Stomp and knocking down Troq, only to have Troq play a second War Stomp and knockdown Arg. :joy: As far as I know this would be the only way in all of Yomi to have both players knocked down during the Combat Phase.

EDIT: I forgot how War Stomp works.

EDIT 2: My original point actually still stands if Troq plays War Stomp first and KD’s Arg, and then plays a second War Stomp, which Arg then counters. Then you could have both players KD’d during combat. :wink:


#590
  1. War Stomp can’t be used when Troq is knocked down, even in the current game
  2. If at any point both players would be knocked down, I believe they both stand back up (don’t have time to confirm atm)

#591

Pretty sure the rules state that if both players are KD at the end of the turn then they both stand up before drawing their next card. So in a scenario where both players were KD’d right before combat they wouldn’t stand up until the end of the turn. As far as I remember, at least.


#592

That sounds plausible. I did put a link to the rulebook in the new Collected Resources topic, if you’d like to check that.


#593

From Page 14:

If both players are knocked down at the same time, cancel the knockdown effect next combat (no one gets the knockdown token). Imagine that you both got up from being knocked down, so neither of you can perform mixup normals on the other next combat.

So, it seems like if both players were to be knocked down during the Draw Phase, then I guess they would stand up immediately, since that same turn’s combat reveal would be the “next” combat? I doubt this ruling had this scenario in mind since the game as it exists right now does not allow for more than one player to be KD’d during the Draw Phase.


#594

I think in the current online game it stands players up before the draw step, but I agree with your interpretation of the rulebook. Weird!


#595

Hmmm I really like it, but @zqxx may have a point here, :argagarg: could end up abusing the knockdown in other matchups we aren’t really focussed on. We’ll need to be careful.

However I don’t think :midori: is as bad as suggested. If Arg does knock him down at the start of the turn then he’s already played his one counter for the turn. So Midori can either jump straight into DF or know he can play a Glimpse later in the turn. This means if Arg does anything other than AA/Block, :midori: can blow him up with dQ, which means in turn means :midori: can block more.

For most characters, it will mean they’ll want to have multiple ability cards in hand before trying to use one, but if they get 2 in hand they get to play one for sure. I’m sure it will turn into mind games of “do they have another ability to play afterwards”, which I like a lot!


I also like @hobusu’s suggestion of putting the card draw back in (gotta have both the crash and the flow), but as written it would let :gloria: draw a card if her J* is countered, which is perhaps not so good. Could we focus it in on “during combat” abiltities - these are explicitly always abilities on combat revealed cards.

How about this:

10 Crash and Flow [Reaction]
Once per turn, counter an ability. If it was on a combat revealed card, that opponent draws a card. Otherwise, put it on the bottom of their deck and knock the opponent down. (Prevent and undo the ability. You can’t counter Aces, Jokers or character cards.)


#596

I think it would actually help Midori in the Arg matchup because of the one counter per turn limit. As hug0 mentioned, Midori does have to deal with being knocked down for one turn, but in exchange he can use a second uncounterable Dragon Form or threaten uncounterable Glimpse that turn. The net effect would be that Midori gets more opportunities to use his Dragon cards, at the cost of sometimes being knocked down when he first enters Dragon Form. As Midori I think I take that.

The proposed War Stomp rewording is “If neither player is knocked down…”. So fortunately we wouldn’t have to worry about the rules for a whole new “two players knocked down during Draw Phase” situation.

This is very clever. I was trying to think of ways to make it affect “During Combat” abilities but not “End of Combat” abilities but couldn’t think up anything elegant. I like the version you have here much better especially for the flavor of having both “Crash” and “Flow” effects.

EDIT: And actually, doesn’t this also mean that countering Gloria’s J* at end of combat would knock her down? Does knock down at end of combat carry over to next turn and thus prevent Healing Touch? How would this work with Combat Reveal / End of Combat / End of Turn abilities?


#597

Well, if the consensus thinks differently from me then I won’t press the point, but as someone who plays both characters, I feel like Arg is getting the better end of the bargain in this change.


This is certainly one way to frame this. Another way to frame it is, “Arg has two really good moves he can power up for at any time, one of which recurs unless it loses combat, that BOTH beat dQ and one of which beats literally anything Midori can do while KD except blocking, making Midori vulnerable to Arg’s excellent mix up normals.” :wink:


#598

Personally I find DF being countered super annoying so I’d probably take the KD to guarantee my 2nd one working. But I could easily be wrong on this, so it will need a lot of testing. I don’t want to drown out your wisdom here, we need this input!

I think it would depend on the exact timing of when KD/not KD is usually set. I think it might be at the end of combat, but I could be wrong. We’ll need to check the manual.

Before I posted this wording I had a quick look through, I think [During Combat] is always on a combat revealed card, while all the other timings are always played from hand, except for Gloria’s J - so its a pretty unique ability.

There would be a weird edge case with my wording - Gloria could play her J as a combat reveal and combo into one or more Js. The combat revealed J would trigger the flow part, while a follow up J would trigger the crash part.

To make this behviour consistent, it would have to be “If it was a During Combat ability …” which is less elegant, but not massively different elegance-wise from “if this was played from hand”


#599

I checked the manual!

For reference this would be my suggested best wording for the reworked counter to avoid weird edge cases with Gloria’s J* and to explicitly codify our desired interaction of counters and special blocks:

10* Crash and Flow [Reaction]
Once per turn, counter an ability. It was a During Combat ability, that opponent draws a card. Otherwise knock that opponent down and put it on the bottom of their deck. (Prevent and undo the ability. You can’t counter Aces, Jokers or character cards. Countered special blocks revert to normal blocks.)

So I’ve read over the relevant sections of the rulebook, and as far as I can tell the timing for setting KD status appears to be just before or during the “End of Combat” step.

The combat phase is broken down on pages 6-10 into the following steps:

  • Play combat cards face down, then reveal
  • Determine combat winner
  • Normal draw rule
  • Joker (rewind time) or bluff
  • Play combos
  • End of combat

The important sentences on KD are on page 14:

To knock the opponent down, end your combo with a knockdown move …

When you knockdown the opponent, give them the knockdown token to help them remember that their defense are weakened next combat (next turn).

Although the precise timing of the KD/standing trigger is not exactly specified, it’s clear that it happens during the current combat phase *and* that the winning player has to finish their combo before KD can be set. Therefore the KD status of both combatants can only be set either right at the end of the Play Combos step or during the End of Combat step. Of the two I find more credible the idea that it’s part of Play Combos, since the text explicitly links the ending of the combo and setting KD. For v3 I think it would be best to add an explicit Set Knockdown step to the list between Play Combos and End of Combat.

In summary, it seems credible to me that countering an “End of Combat” ability would result in knockdown that remains until the following turn. Even if it isn’t exactly clear how it would work in v2, it seems simple enough to make it explicitly work like this for v3.

This would make countering Gloria’s J* really good for Argagarg. I think this probably makes it worth continuing to explore with idea in his other match-ups.


#600

I think any ability that requires an extra phase is bad and should be rethought.


#601

I think I still prefer “make his throws a little better” as the slight buff for Lum, compared to messing with Arg’s counter.


#602

That’s a fair comment, but its important to remember this is an existing thing in the game right now that doesn’t have clear timing within the Yomi rulebook because the listing of phases and steps occurs before knockdown is added into the game and explained. My proposed extra step would exist within the combat phase and be there solely to make it explicit when KD is set. This could also be achieved by rewording the knockdown section to make the timing clear, with no extra phase/step added, if that’s preferred.

To be completely clear, I’m simply asking the question “when does knockdown occur?” and going to the rulebook I found its at best ambiguous between two timepoints towards the end of the combat phase. I really think this should be unambiguously clear from the rules even if no abilities are added that potentially interact with it.


#603

I see you changed the wording to “knock that opponent down” in the most recent draft. I’d like to ask again the question I had earlier, which everyone seems to have ignored: How does this work in 2v2? Is it possible to knock down the benched player if they play an ability and you counter it with Crash and Flow? Also, how does any ability that can potentially cause knockdown at any time interact with Snapbacks?

I know most people here don’t really care about 2v2, in large part because the online client never supported it, but it’s still a part of the game that can’t be ignored when making changes to cards.


#604

I don’t really see how the timing of knockdown is ambiguous. Whenever you are KD, the KD lasts until you have resolved a combat reveal, with the character standing up immediately after the combat reveal has been resolved.


#605

Yes, what Juicer says is correct. Getting up from knockdown happens immediately after determining combat winner.


#606

I honestly really don’t want to get into what I feel is a pedantic argument over this but the rules as written in the rulebook are not explicit about the timing. To be clear I’m not disputing the timing of the online client, so I’m using the rulebook as my only source of information. There may be another doument I’m not aware of that’s more clear but in this one I can only find two relevant sentences, the ones I’ve already quoted, which I will quote again for clarity:

To knock the opponent down, end your combo with a knockdown move (a move that has the knockdown symbol). [page 14, paragraph 2]

When do you give the opponent a knockdown token? From this it would seem you give it to them as you finish your combo. This occurs in the Play Combos step (Step 2e) which occurs during the Combat Phase (Phase 2 of each turn).

When you knock down the opponent, give them the knockdown token to help them remember that their defenses are weakened next combat (next turn). [page 14, paragraph 3]

When do you take away the token? Well obviously this needs to happen immediately after the “next combat” is resolved. However “next combat” is ambiguous. This could refer to end of the Combat Reveal (Step 2a), after the last card is played in the combat - which occurs at the end of Play Combos (Step 2e as above), or at the end of the Combat Phase which finishes after End of Combat (Step 2f).

Maybe I’m wrong here but I can’t see a clear unambiguous reading of these sentences that places the giving up of the knockdown token at a definite timepoint.

I’m simply suggesting that this information should be clearly stated somewhere.


#607

Ah, I see. I just applied the online client’s rules. I’ll repeat though, that this only seems to matter because we are contemplating an ability that applies knockdown on a non-standard timing (i.e. not at the end of a combo, and not prior to a combat reveal). Since the game works unambiguously with these two KD timings, I still think that this new Arg counter is bad, because it means we have to extremely clearly map out timing rules for the whole game in order to understand an interaction that impacts less than 1% of MUs.


#608

A better way to fix this counter (that I think is bad and shouldn’t exist), would be to change the wording so that it knocks down “at end of combat, as though you had hit your opponent with a KD ender this combat.”