Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)

Yomi
568

Sure, but you can’t throw out the empirical data either. If you do that then you assume that you know more than you do. You nerf a character when there is a perceived problem with her power level, and I’m not seeing any.

Here’s my MU chart for Sets based on optimal play:

Grave - 4.5
Jaina - 6
Rook - 5.5
DeGrey - 6
Geiger - 5.5
Midori - 4.5
Valerie - 5
Lum - 5
Argagarg - 5.5
Onimaru - 4.5
Troq - 4
Zane - 4.5
Gwen - 5.5
Gloria - 5.5
Quince - 5.5
Bal-Bas-Beta - 6
Persephone - 6.5
Menelker - 6
Vendetta - 6

That looks like a strong tournament character to me. It does not look like a problem.

4 Likes
569

You’re not supposed to be able to power up aces for other aces. For Sets, that impacts her ability to get out of bad hands, and for Lum, it impacts his ability to trigger PF.

571

She beats Zane and Onimaru, so the matrix you made is already low. Secondly, Troq is getting nerfed in this version, so she will literally have no counterpick.

1 Like
572

In the physical game, you’re supposed to discard all the cards you’re going to use to power up with at once and then search for all the Aces you’ve earned that turn at once. In the online game, you instead discard the cards one rank at a time and get the Aces right after each discard, meaning that characters like Setsuki and Lum have (even more of) an incentive to discard Aces for power up. In Setsuki’s case, she can get out of some hands on the online version by powering up until her hand has nothing but Aces, then repeatedly discarding those and getting one fewer back until she only has a single Ace in hand, at which point Speed of the Fox triggers.

4 Likes
573

Thanks for the detailed explanation, I think I get it. That is quite noticeable for Sets. Is it legal to power up for nothing in the physical game? Also, Fivec said you aren’t supposed to be able to power up Aces for other Aces, was he mistaken?

574

This mainly affects Setsuki and Lum. As far as powering up for nothing, it’s the same as the server. You can fail to find Aces from your deck, but not your discard.

2 Likes
575

You can’t power up with Aces that you just powered up for. You can power up with Aces that you already had in your hand.

1 Like
576

cpat’s Sets MU list is actually worse than mine in terms of overall numbers. He has Sets losing to Lum and Quince and a couple of my 6s as 5.5s.

There’s just no way Sets beats Zane, and I used to think Oni-Sets was 6-4 Oni before coming back to 5.5. Those matchups are at best even.

In a world where Troq gets nerfed, I can see some damage nerfs to Sets making sense, however. I was mainly speaking to her current power level in today’s meta.

4 Likes
577

Oh. That’s less of a nerf than I thought.

2 Likes
578

To clarify, the official Yomi rulebook does state that you can power up and then not get any Aces if there are no Aces in your discard pile, but if there are any in your discard you must get an Ace from there if you can’t or don’t want to get one from your deck (page 13, exact wording is “You can get fewer Aces than you’re entitled to, but only if there are no Aces left in your discard pile”).

I believe the reason for this is because if there are no Aces in your discard, up to four of the Aces could be in your hand. Instead of spelling out something like “you don’t have to get Aces if you could have them in your hand, but if your opponent can prove that at least one is in your deck you have to get it”… It was just simpler to allow players to choose not to get Aces if none are in the discard. So that part of the game, at least, is intended to work that way to keep things from getting too complicated.

You are allowed to discard Aces to power up (again on page 13, “You can even discard a pair of Aces or a pair of Jokers to get an Ace, though it would be an unusual move to do so”). So if you discard, for example, three Jacks to get two Aces, in the physical game you cannot discard those two Aces for another power up within the same turn because all the Aces must be collected during the Power Up Phase at the same time. You would have to wait for next turn, but then there would be nothing preventing you from discarding that pair of Aces during the new Power Up Phase.

2 Likes
579

Was good to listen to this again, especially for the part where I nearly spit out my coffee despite knowing full well the “weirdo trickshot move” comment was imminent. :slight_smile:

Regarding potential Setsuki nerfs and that podcast, a few comments stuck out to me. The first (Gwen section) is that Setsuki is referred to as the definitive base set rushdown character with no mention of vortexes, and Gwen is intended to be her rushdown counterpart in the Shadows expansion. It seems that Setsuki being a vortex character was just a side effect of the particular card flow / draw engine they chose to facilitate her rushdown game, rather than a core part of her design. The second (Onimaru section) is that Setsuki is supposed to be about hurting the opponent through a lot of little hits as opposed to big damage in a few hits.

Given that being a vortex character is a secondary factor for Sets, it seems odd that she has not one but TWO vortex mechanics, in the form of Speed of the Fox and the Bag of Tricks vortex (recurring 7 with 7 ad infinitum). In the Persephone section, they discussed how each of Perse’s vortex mechanics is good on its own but they have synergistic effects when used in concert. This also describes Sets SotF and Bag of Tricks, which seems odd when Perse is a dedicated vortex character and Sets is focused on rushdown. SotF is her card flow mechanic so serves an indispensable rushdown purpose aside from its vortex qualities, but the same cannot be said of 7-looping. In light of this, I think preventing recurring 7s with Bag of Tricks to eliminate 7-loop vortexes is a reasonable nerf.

Given that playing Sets is supposed to feel like wearing the opponent down through lots of little hits, it seems odd that her AA Ender only does 1 damage less than characters like Ven and Gloria, especially considering she has 2 CP more than them. I think nerfing AA to 15 damage, aside from being a good balance change, also suits her flavor of dealing many small hits.

So I’d propose AA -> 15 damage and 7-looping removed. Add in the correction to powerup rules which subtly nerfs her and I’m sure Setsuki would be strong but at no risk of being S-tier in V3. We just have to watch the Troq mu, since the proposed Troq nerfs don’t really help Sets much.

2 Likes
580

Guys, beating Setsuki is easy.
Just 10 throw.

And I said 7 damage Menelker throws!

1 Like
581

IMO Setsuki should be buffed

582

Yeah this sounds like a pretty reasonable moderate nerf to what she does. It might be fine to still let her recurr AA with this nerf in place, but that would probably be best to be decided in testing.

The troq section in this is absolutely hilarious :joy:

1 Like
583

Oh? I’ll have to check it out.

1 Like
584

I don’t think the Troq nerfs affect his MU against Sets in a super meaningful way. AA at 1.2 still “beats” her J, though it loses to single A and now trades with AA (I think?). But if Setsuki is playing single A or AA in neutral you’re probably happy with that, tbh.

1 Like
585

Yes, you need to check it out! It’s the reason that I like Troq as a character as much as I do!
(As in, I’m in a D&D campaign where the DM decided it would be OK for me to play as Troq. Yes, grappling is involved. Also, this is despite me not playing Troq in Yomi—I just like him as a character.)

3 Likes
586

Given the :setsuki: discussion and these comments in particular:

I’ve added 7s not looping 7s and AA to 15(2) damage as “consensus changes”.

I’ve also added 7s not looping 7s or pairs as “changes under consideration”, since fetching AA might still be required vs (reworked) Troq.

3 Likes
587

I think you’re on to something here which could potentially help Rook-Arg, Lum-Arg, and Arg-Gloria in one fell swoop while also making Arg’s counter more interactive. Here’s what I have in mind.

Reworked Crash & Flow: Once per turn, counter an ability. If it was played from hand, put it on the bottom of their deck and knock down the opponent.

Here’s how I think it affects the most relevant matchups.

Lum-Arg: Lum loves this. Combine it with the proposed Jackpot change and he can get a lot of mileage out of stockpiling abilities and using them all in one turn. Lum-Arg might be no worse than 6-4!

Rook-Arg: This would make Rook-Arg slightly worse since he wouldn’t draw a card when his special blocks are countered. But, as has already been discussed, the way counters interact with special blocks is already very unintuitive. One would assume that countering a special block would remove its ability text and make it act like a normal block, but instead it is just discarded without doing anything. So, combine this Crash & Flow rework with having special blocks act like normal blocks when countered and the Rook-Arg mu becomes better! Considering we are changing special blocks for intuition reasons already, this should probably happen anyway.

Arg-Gloria: Crash & Flow doesn’t make the opponent draw a card, so that helps Arg when countering Sphere and Jack especially since Gloria’s engine is very card-hungry. Countering Sphere also KDs Gloria, and while the KD ends before Healing Touch it certainly doesn’t hurt Arg to have Gloria on her back for a combat. The only time this might hurt Arg is when he has multiple counters in hand and Gloria uses multiple abilities, and even then he just has to wait to get good value out of his counters (Gloria’s Jacks return to hand so another counter opportunity is inevitable). So it seems this helps Arg in the matchup!

So if I’m right that makes four skewed matchups (also Lum-DeGrey) that are significantly helped by making the following changes:
-Reworked Crash & Flow: Once per turn, counter an ability. If it was played from hand, put it on the bottom of their deck and knock down the opponent.
-Jackpot doesn’t draw on use and reads: The opponent reveals 2 cards from their hand at random. For each Ace, they take 5 dmg and you draw a card. For each Joker, you take 2 dmg.
-Countered special blocks act like normal blocks

Plus, it accomplishes the goal of making Arg’s counter more interactive in two ways: limiting it to once per turn, and having it knock down the opponent when the countered ability was played from hand. This aspect affects a bunch of matchups in somewhat nuanced ways, but thus far I can think of only positive benefits (like Midori getting Dragon Form more often in the mu) and it doesn’t seem to break anything. I could be wrong though so we should think on that.

All of these things sound great to me, and it actually feels more elegant than current implementation if anything. Thoughts?

2 Likes
588

I like it! Though I do wonder if having a “perfect counter” (aka one with no cost to play) against any abilities not played from hand (like Windmill Crusher) would be a bit too powerful, even if it can only be used once per turn. I do remember that the official breakdown of the EX characters made a big deal out of how EX Quince got a perfect counter and how none of the other characters had one in either normal or EX form, so it seems to have been a design goal to avoid that for the base game. Maybe something like this would work?

10 – Crash and Flow [Reaction]
Once per turn, counter an ability. If it was played from hand, put it on the bottom of their deck and knock down the opponent. If not, that opponent draws a card. (Prevent and undo the ability. You can’t counter Aces, Jokers or character cards.)

Also, how does the KD part of it work in a 2v2 game? I assume you can’t KD benched players, but does using it on a benched opponent’s ability KD the active opponent?