Wow so many more posts than i originally noticed. Nice!!
Yeah. Basically, not sure if more damage off Lum throws are the answer or if they will have a more negative effect on his winning MUs.
The Arg counter change is especially noticeable in the Arg-Lum matchup if the proposed Jackpot change happens as well.
Arg almost always has at least one Ace in hand vs. Lum and it is often known/recurring. This makes the tweaked Jackpot more threatening to him than most chars. So in practice, Lum play in the mu would consist of stockpiling Jackpots and PFs and playing as many abilities as possible in a single turn. Argâs counter would still play a role in the mu, but if Lum is patient he could still get value out of his abilities.
It also makes for interesting interactions in some other matchups. Vs. Menelker for example, if Mene tries to banish something and Arg counters it, it actually affects each playerâs thinking going into combat because Arg cannot counter Bonecracker during combat that turn. This is the kind of interactivity I wish Argâs counter had more of.
Unfortunately, it makes the Gloria matchup worse so I agree with you that I think we have to scrap it. If anyone has another counter rework idea though Iâd love to hear it!
3 Likes
Hmmm. I actually like this a lot, and I like that this change would also help Midori against Arg by letting him get into DF more easily.
For now we can probably keep this idea in mind as a possibility. (Though if Arg is getting a once-per-turn limit maybe we should excuse the âcards played from hand go to the bottom of the deckâ clause? Just a random thought.) If Arg gets something useful against Gloria in V3 it might outweigh the additional advantage Gloria gets from this change to Argâs counter.
EDIT: This might actually also hurt Arg substantially in the Valerie MU too, now that I think about it more, but so few players have played Valerie while Iâve been active that I canât speak with a ton of confidence about the MU.
2 Likes
The âabilities played from hand go to the bottom of the deckâ is actually a pretty clever little inclusion in the current version of the ability in that it can help Arg in the Gloria matchup but nerfs the counter in most other matchups.
The reason for this is that it makes Crash & Flow really good for countering 10h, since if it went to discard instead of deck Gloria could quickly recur it with Healing Touch and use it again. Oh and the same fact applies to Perseâs 10 as well.
2 Likes
As I recall, thatâs precisely the reason for that clause being there, right?
Oh you are totally correct. I cannot believe that slipped my mind!
1 Like
Iirc it was supposed to help out Lum. T going to the discard would mess up follow up Ts. It is also why Lum got the ability to draw cards from the bottom of deck on 2-3
1 Like
Re-reading this article, it looks like weâre both right. Argâs counter putting the card on the bottom of the deck (if played from hand) made things better for Lum because even if Arg countered Poker Flourish he could still have another chance to play it if he either powered up to reshuffle or got lucky with his innate and drew the bottom card of the deck (and that option was added specifically to make that interaction possible). On the other hand, the same change to Argâs counter prevented Gloria and Persephone from recurring their abilities from their discard piles as they usually do.
So yeah my opinions on Setsuki.
Balance ideas.
-I honestly think 7s shouldnât recur 7s or doubles. I feel like she becomes too autopiloty with so much access to 7 loops, but 7 is a fun card. It also makes her less willing to throw with a 7.
-Iâd rather 65 HP than a damage nerf. I feel like the fact she draws so many jokers she has much more effective HP than most 70 HP characters.
Perhaps too much.
-Normals or Throws slower to .6? Why is the Ibuki-type character so great at footsies!? Would open up some cross up defense. Also I feel like she is less interesting to play against when youâre not a grappler or donât have a 0.0 Move. However nerfing her 7 should be enough she has less access to the dominant throw.
Enjoyment preferences:
- I donât personally enjoy playing as the character. I just feel auto piloty until I have jokers, which is when decision making with her is sorta interesting.
- Against her: Figuring out when she has to throw to dump is kinda fun. Grapplers/Zane are also interesting to fight Setsuki with because you actually can throw her a bit more consistently. 7s recurring 7s turns arenât very fun to play against.
3 Likes
Perhaps we could limit Crash and Flow to one use per turn but make it knock down the opponent? This could be limited to just against abilties âplayed from handâ or âout of combat abiltiesâ to not buff his game vs Rook.
Maybe in this world the counter wouldnât let the opponent draw a card, since itâs been nerfed significantly by being limited to once per turn.
Just spitballing before I hit the hay so this might be ludicrously strong in a matchup I havenât considered.
1 Like
I found an interesting discussion between Sirlin and Aphotix from around three years ago about the Yomi Shadows characters. It seems like it would be good to refresh everyoneâs memories of how those characters ended up the way they are, and some of their comments could be useful to keep in mind for this.
2 Likes
I think itâs easy to read Setsuki hands on non-SOTF hands, but she is a vortex character, and SOTF is a vortex situation. Itâs very easy, even for experienced players who know what Plan A Setsuki is trying to do, to guess wrong on a few SOTF turns and take like 75% life, which is why people hate the character. I get it.
That said, she doesnât need to be nerfed. She is fine as she is, as is evidenced by the fact that if you take BD Corro and myself out of the equation, she becomes a straight-up bad character in the historical MU chart. Notably, the same cannot be said if you take out the top 1-2 players from other âtop tierâ characters like Zane or Troq. Take Raziek (one of the winningest Yomi players period) out of the equation, and Zane is still a very strong character.
You are either ok with a glass cannon vortex character in your game or you arenât. Setsuki can blow you up, but she can also get blown up. Better guess right.
4 Likes
This is my favorite podcast because it spawned the âtrickshot, weirdo moveâ meme.
1:12:00 onwards is where you can find this, and it perfectly describes my playstyle oops.
1 Like
And anyway, sheâs getting a nerf as it is if Thelo ever actually implements the PU rule 
1 Like
Gotta balance with optimal play in mind. I mean if all we cared about was average player power level weâd buff Persephone through and then a few Persephone masters would make everyone else quit Yomi.
5 Likes
I commentated a couple Setsuki games in detail for anyoneâs whoâs interested:
9 Likes
Yeah, I was chuckling to myself as I listened to that part. If only they knewâŚ
Currently, this debate is occurring in the fighting game community. Some players think that Capcom based there recent balance patch for Street Fighter V on the win rates for the average online player. Specifically, it is mostly in reference to Cammy. Many inexperienced players use her and she has a low win rate online. In response to this, Capcom buffs her. However, in tournaments she was already considered a top tier character. Many players are very unhappy with this.
2 Likes
Can you explain what this PU rule change is and how it would impact Sets (and Lum)? Iâve forgotten.