I would like to reiterate at this point that I personally think Setsuki is broadly fine as is. But I do understand the concerns of those who think her card flow and fast options make playing against her into too much of a game of 50/50s, and dislike that she has no incentive not to dump her hand on any combat win, even into a joker.
The intent of the changes was to give her a reason to respect jokers, and to make Speed of the Fox trigger less often so it becomes more of āadvantage timeā and a reset once sheās played her hand down to nothing, instead of something she can reliably trigger two or more turns in a row. That will force her to make more decisions about what to play and how much to commit rather than dump as much as she can at every opportunity.
Can you (or anyone else) think of better ways to accomplish those things, that donāt require her deck or play style to change completely?
Excluding aces is worth considering. Iām not sure itās a helpful change but it might be - and I am the sort of player who likes when similar abilities work in similar ways. It provides structure, and having fewer finicky differences to keep track of makes the design more elegant -and the game easier to learn. (Same as Rookās special blocks returning on Block/Block).
That is 100% valid. I suppose from my perspective, there are three reasons one might choose not to play into a facedown in Yomi:
You will waste cards from your own hand that you may or may not be able to get back.
You will leave yourself on a low hand.
You will give your opponent two more cards.
To me, it seems like 1 and 2 are generally much more important factors than 3. Sure, it sucks to give your opponent cards, but it doesnāt suck NEARLY as much as wasting that triple ace super or failing to KO when you have only a card or two left in hand.
Since Setsuki generally doesnāt have to be concerned with 1 or 2, it feels like she just has LESS of a relationship with facedowns rather than a DIFFERENT relationship, if that makes sense. Like, most characters need to take all 3 points into consideration, but Setsuki largely only has to think about number 3. She isnāt thinking about Jokers differently than other characters; sheās just thinking about them less. And since number 3 is a much smaller deterrent than 1 or 2, she ends up playing into facedowns more often and with less worry than other characters.
I realize that you likely were aware of all this, but I just wanted to clarify my thoughts about Setsuki and jokers.
She picks up 7QK instead of 7AA/QAA. Takes her a little more time to do loop things but it still largely happens. Maybe this is a fine nerf though. I wouldnāt outright reject it like I have some other suggestions that have been made.
Iām probably in the minority on this, but I donāt like dumping high damage stuff into my opponentās facedowns if I know I can win combat next turn, especially if that high damage stuff is Aces. I will often pass if I think I have a high percentage chance of winning combat the next turn.
I also think that Setsuki is fine where she is (though I think a small damage nerf is probably good). I also think that a largely underdeveloped skill in most players today is the ability to read a hand, and even though Setsuki has a tendency to change that hand frequently, it only becomes easier as the game progresses when you are able to see the frequency of certain cards in the discard, and combining that with ways to dump a hand with x cards. I think a player who has generally proven that he is good at this skill (although he does not play the game anymore) is @MadKing. I also think that players are exceptionally bad at punishing Setsuki hands that cannot be immediately dumped, which is a skill that is mandatory to having continued success against her. I donāt know if there are any VODs out there, but watch me commentate a @Fivec game and tell you exactly what is in his hand or what he is thinking by midgame, or there are a couple old matches out there (not sure if they were recorded or not) where I beat him handily in the Setsuki mirror because he played the Plan A Setsuki game and I punished it.
Admittedly I did lose 0-4 to him in an old Summer Smash with Zane, but that was largely due to my own incompetence with not landing a single Maximum Anarchy in four games and whiffing maybe five or six of them, but I think I am 8-1 vs. Fivec in the Setsuki mirror in tournament.
I have never set up my own stream so I donāt have any idea where they may or may not be, and also these would be in the hands of other streamers from two or three years ago (think maybe Leontes, Mad King?). If youād like, I can coach you (and anyone else) in anti-Setsuki tech. Itās probably best if we are playing each other so you can know exactly what I am thinking and I can help you understand why you should make the moves you make.
From prior experience with coaching, I find I am very bad at receiving it live, especially in a situation where I am already feeling tilted. Hence why I was going to watch commentary. Iāll see if I can find some videos where youāve commentated Setsuki play and then consider talking to you about some live stuff.
I think Setsuki could use a very very slight damage nerf but honestly she is in a good spot. Or maybe just donāt allow her to power up for nothing (force her to fetch at least one ace)? In any case the character at its core is just irritating to fight against and that requires a complete overhaul for that to change.
The Setsuki tangent ran quite long so I wanted to make sure ideas didnāt get lost:
Consensus changes
-Setsuki - small damage nerf (I like AA 15 dmg so weāre only changing one card)
Changes under consideration
-Lum Jackpot doesnāt draw on use and reads: The opponent reveals 2 cards from their hand at random. For each Ace, they take 5 damage and you draw a card. For each Joker, you take 2 damage. (definitely helps vs. DeGrey, would help vs. Arg if his counter was weaker)
-Arg Counter limited to once per turn (does this hurt Arg vs. Gloria too much?)
-Menelker Slow J 10+10 damage, +1 Jack, 2CP Starter (I think this helps vs. grapplers/Zane/Oni/DeGrey without significantly affecting other mus)
-Gwen Dreadlands Portal buff (Iād rather give it KD than just buff the damage, to encourage it being used as a way to open up her Plan A rushdown rather than creating a Plan B dodge/Super throw mixup. But the Tickle could use some kind of buff for sure)
-Ven Jack gains ability Assassinās Toolbox: Discard this to search your deck (not discard pile) for a non-Joker card.
What problem is this clause attempting to address? Is this just so that if Lum has more than 1 PF in hand he can be guaranteed to play at least one?
EDIT: For the record I do think this change would be a small but substantial harm to Arg in the Gloria MU, so personally I donāt think this is a great change.
