I would assume that the optimal state would be 5-5 matchups between every cast member, as long as that can be accomplished without removing the essential natures and differences of each of the cast members and without completing overcomplicating the rules. Why would you intentionally build in imbalance? In fact, I think there’s a Sirlin blog post out there somewhere specifically arguing against building in intentional imbalance.
Why would you intentionally build in imbalance? It’s required for a varied cast. The more you balance the characters the more homogenous you make them. Make Lum’s throws better? Now he’s just like everybody else. There goes his baked-in weakness. I thought the goal of this was not to have 7-3s, not to try and 5-5 everything into a who-cares-who-you-pickathon…
My main hope would be (1) beat Troq and Zane down a bit, (2) try to improve the worst MUs in the game. It would be cool to also (3) bring some of the worst performing characters up a little.
Giving lum +3 max damage off throws is not remotely “making him just like everyone else.” That’s a really weird thing to say.
This is equally weird to hear too. If all three races in StarCraft had even MUs against each other that would be a “who-cares-who-you-pickathon”?
Relevant article: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/game-balance-and-yomi
To quote a relevant section from the relevant article @FenixOfTheAshes linked:
Furthermore, balanced just means the matchups are fair. It doesn’t say anything about the dynamics of how interesting the game is. A balanced game could be boring or interesting and if you had a really interesting game, it’s better if it’s balanced well than if it isn’t.
Yes, it’s hard to balance a varied cast of characters. Yes, it’s easy to make everything more homogenous. No, that does not mean we should give up on balancing a varied cast of characters, or only attempt to do so by making them more homogenous. So to directly answer one of the questions you asked, we really don’t want Lum/DeGrey to be DeGrey favored. It makes sense that it is, and it’s unlikely we can get it to a true 5/5 matchup without making something else worse, but it’s still the ideal.
That article was actually a major reason that I started playing Yomi.
Persephone KDs Arg-> plays Bare Your Soul or Do As Told in response to Protective Ward-> Persephone is KD and can no longer threaten dodges-> 2.4 speed attacks are a free vortex break unless she has On Your Knees(AA), jokers and Blowfish Spikes will always break vortex. Replace Persephone with Geiger or Quince if you want.
“Don’t play a draw phase ability(or counter his) while Arg is KD in case he has a counter, otherwise you lose not only the ability but also KD advantage. But hey, you get to draw a card!”
Seems you accidentally countered Knockdown. Warstomp avoids this since Troq can’t do it while KD.
Thanks for the analyis! Perse is always difficult to assess so getting the perspective of someone who actually plays her is super helpful.
It’s true that Arg can counter one ability to KD Perse (and give her a free card), but Perse has quite a bit of counterplay. For one, she could just choose to not play an ability while Arg is KD if she’s afraid of that. But if she wants to play an ability, her counter is recurring and this Crash & Flow can’t be used more than once in a turn so she will always have the advantage in counter wars. Yes, Arg can take 10 damage to make his ability uncounterable but then he just paid 10 life to KD Perse and give her a free card, which sounds more than fair.
What I see here looks like a matchup that was previously quite Perse favored (especially after any buffs she gets in V3) becoming more even and interactive on both sides.
I’m somewhat worried that this Arg counter has shifted the thread from being a really pleasant discussion to something a lot more divided and emotional. Or maybe that was just discussing Setsuki. Either way, I really don’t want it to go off the rails like so many other threads before it.
It’s important to remember that we were just throwing all our ideas for a “counter that knocked down” against the wall to see if something stuck. We really were just trying to see if there was a version of it that would help Arg vs Gloria (the KD part) while also helping Lum vs Arg (the once per turn limit). I get the people didn’t like the idea but we just wanted to see if we could take it somewhere that added something interesting and flavourful.
Unfortunately we haven’t yet found a way to make it do what we really wanted (knock down Gloria at the right time to prevent her healing that turn) and it seems to affect a whoIe lot of other match-ups in ways that aren’t necessarily ideal.
The really killer for me is Quince not feeling he can play 10* or 2* while he’s in vortex mode, as pointed out by @flagrantangles. I had also come to the same realisation when I started going through the cast. This seems like a bit of a difficult pill to swallow, even if Arg could probably use a boost in that matchup.
So right now I’m inclined to park it and look at a different way of helping Lum/Arg. We’re already making Bubble Shield stop healing so maybe the Arg/Gloria match will be better with just that change.
Oh and @hobusu, I’m super sorry I haven’t responded to your comments about 2v2 - primarily I keep coming on and being unable to respond to everything because the number of posts has grown so large!
Honestly I just don’t know very much about 2v2, so I would rather balance and test for 1v1 and then figure out how to make it not break 2v2 later.
It’s not a huge concern, but I would like everyone to keep it in the back of their mind just so we don’t end up going through a ton of work for a character change only to have it not work in 2v2. “An ounce of prevention” and all that.
I don’t even know the rules for 2v2 though…
Free, non-interactive* vortex break because Perse tries to use an ability integral to her game plan? Her consolation prize is a 10 measly damage that she might have gotten anyways. I’d take the vortex over this any time except lethal. Also, her stuff doesn’t recur like normal since this particular counter puts it at the bottom of the deck! Persephone is a momentum based, control vortex character. If she can’t use her ability in the middle of a vortex then when is she supposed too? I can’t stress enough how bad losing the vortex is and how so many of her problems stem from that. Arg already has great tools to get out, this would be straight up murder.
Geiger and Quince are also hit pretty hard by the ruined setups.
It might be slightly Perse favored but it’s definitely not 6-4. @FraaOrolo didn’t even think it was Perse favored(last i knew). One thing she can do is a reverse perfect on 1 hp against Arg, but only if the gods smile upon ye. Perse has always had great Mu’s on paper but I’m very skeptical over how much of it was armchair theoretics vs properly explored gameplay. Go look at the old MU chart from that article linked above. I would kill for all those 6s and a 4.5 setsuki! Her numbers have plummeted since despite almost no one playing her.
*Args options are:
- 2.4 speed poke 100% unless she has aces
- 2.4 speed poke or bubble shield 50/50. Persephone’s options for this are awful
- Gold burst or AA for 100% break, with decent chance for undercutting AA
They can be pretty complicated, yeah. It becomes a lot easier to understand and remember once you’ve played a game or two, and you definitely don’t want to look at the Assist rules until you’ve got a fairly good grasp on the rest of it…
All the same, it is a really fun way to play, so I hope you get a chance to try it sometime!
Ok, after reading @thehug0naut’s post I feel kinda bad. I’m being maybe a bit too overbearingly contrary so let me make one thing clear: I greatly admire your idea at a basic level. It’s a ambitious idea to modify such an entrenched part of Args kit and you obviously put some time and thought into it. Were it not for my strong feelings for Perse & co, I would be cheering you on instead. Sorry.
It could maybe be solved by saying the KD effect(and only the KD effect) of Args counter doesn’t work if he himself is KD, a la Warstomp. It certainly fixes it but it’s clunky as all hell.
No worries Shax, I interpreted our debate as just that. My feelings are not so fragile. I too want to say that I’m sorry (to anyone) if I’ve been overbearing, it was totally unintentional. I don’t convey tone super well over the internet and all that.
Moreover, you have good points. I wasn’t convinced reworked Crash & Flow would make Perse-Arg that bad after your first post, but your more recent one is hard to argue with. I stand corrected!
It wasn’t my intent to make anyone feel bad, I just wanted to try and de-escalate since I could feel the tone starting to get a bit heated.
I appreciate the comment though. Glad you liked the attempt, if not the execution
It was a nice signpost for me to check my tone and consider how constructive I was being. That was a terribly written angry rant before. I didn’t want to throw the whole post out though so I just edited it.
I get fired up kinda easy
KD for combat doesn’t do anything in this match-up. Gloria still has K and Q for crossup defence. Scrap this.
You’re also all missing an important rule: any time both players are knocked down, they immediately get up.
Perhaps we should list +1 pump to Lum’s throws as under consideration, until another idea to help Lum-Arg comes up? I’m skeptical of the change for reasons I’ve already discussed but it may be worth testing.
I think Perse needs a general buff and we could pretty easily get a consensus after a bit of discussion. What do you see as the advantages of +1 throw damage compared to +5 life? I don’t have a strong opinion either way.
EDIT: I removed the last few thoughts I had here because I realized they didn’t really make sense. Basically, I’m wondering whether +5 life or +1 throw damage helps Perse more in her worst matchups like Sets/Gwen.