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Nudging the tiller - balance


#142

@Shax: Unless I am mistaken this happened because he released new editions of the game instead of just update packs and people who backed the previous versions felt kinda ripped off. As far as I can see, people have absolutely no problem if you release a decently priced update pack for the owners of the previous versions.


#143

Adam Poots released KDM 1.5 to great reception and fanfare (and 12mil bucks KS campaign, cough). It included a lot of updated mechanics and new content for the base game.

Yes, there was a reasonably priced Update Pack for owners of original KDM 1.0 game.

K:DM base game costs ~250 dollars, update pack was priced at $60 at KS.

People did not feel ripped off. :ghost:


#144

The level of rage or happiness at a new edition really seems hard to predict. A lot of uncertainty in that market. What gamers feel is a reasonably priced upgrade kit is another difficult prediction to make.

If Codex was made by another company and they put out a <60 card upgrade pack (don’t actually know how many cards top players think need changing) for $10-15 I could see it going over well. Hard core players would be happy that the game has been improved and it is such a small price point that I could see the casuals being okay with it too.

There’s something I’ve seen companies do and I think it’s awful but I’ve never seen a company get flack for it. They make changes to the game and release an errata and then subsequent printings of the game have upgraded cards but an update pack isn’t released for people with the old printing, they just have to go by the errata.

If an errata document was made available alongside the update pack that might help some.

Nobodies more bummed about Sirlin feeling like he doesn’t fit in the board gaming design world. Maybe he doesn’t feel this way but it’s the vibe I get. Either way it appears he won’t be doing any work in the board game world for a long time. He was (is?) my favorite board game designer. I much preferred his style of releasing a solid game and then updating it as needed to keep it interesting for people that enjoy and play the game most.


#145

So guys while I was failing to fall asleep last night, I came up with two great ideas.

Ok what if Knight of the conclave was forecast two? That would be scary.
Currently no one ever plays it because it’s really hard to justify spending a card for zero board presence on turn three or four. And it still would be! But at least the payoff might come soon enough to make an impact, instead of after tech 2s are already being swung around and knight feels useless.

What if rickety mine had haste? Now you can generate that extra gold immediately! It still takes up a card and has no board presence, but you can start the dangerous gold farming right away!


#146

KotC does see play, and giving it Forecast 2 would make it very powerful, as a purple player I am happy where it is. Niche =/= Unplayed/underpowered.


#147

In what situation do you ever play it over other things?


#148

Here is an example of a game where I played KotC, they fall very nicely into what I call Forecast spam and pair very nicely with Seers/Temporal Research. Also seen use by EricF last CAMS in use with the Peace engine (if I remember correctly he won the tournament with that deck correct?)

I have played more games with them, this is just the first one I found

An advantage with this style of play is around T4/5 you have a very small deck, allowing very rapid cycling and reflexive teching. With forecast 2 and a single seer, the turn after you played it arrives, which doesn’t give an opponent time to exploit the opening you have made (esp if the purple player is P1).


#149

I think I’ve homed on what makes update packs go down consumer’s throat swimmingly.

It’s the content.

People who bought Update Pack for K:DM were buying new content (extra huge boss monster and a bunch of new events). Errata’d old cards felt like a freebie thrown in there.

So… The solution is clear!

New “Crusade” faction Gwen+Gloria+Menelker, and 20 rebalanced cards from original Codex for free in that box! $30, get it today!


#150

I’m not sure I can consider this specific game as evidence, given the amount of illegal moves you made…
I’ll take your word for it though, I guess they’re just only useful in mono-purple (as first techs, obviously I have a good use for them as a late game tech).


#151

I can only spot 1, and I sorry to see that (free Fargo on T4)must off got confused during the 3 month break, anyways here are a few more games then of just mine, and they are played in multi colour, most notably with the peace engine, where 0 cost units are loved, both EricF and Frozen storm have played them in tournament and won with them

Highlighing the rapid cycling, at the end of T4, I only have 3 cards left in my deck

Given the number of games that pop up when I search for KotC or Knight of the conclave, I hardly think they are bad/niche enough to need a buff, and going from forcast 3->2 is a very big buff, the difference in timing I feel when playing with KotC and Vir mech is imense, that extra turn is really important to give your opponent a chance to punish your 0 cost 5/4’s with resist, otherwise they will just roll over everyone.


#152

I’ve teched/played KotC when I rushed maxband Vir (with optional Double Time) in a few monopurple games. Stuff’s expensive, 0 cost self-filtering card with delayed defensive presence was rather appropriate.
Fading 2 would make it too good, I believe.


#153

@Metalize Totally agree. Upgrade packs are obviously best sold with new content, like expansions. If a buyer gets an expansion AND an upgrade kit, the pricing problem will mostly solve itself easily, i.e. regular price for the epansion plus a couple of bucks for the upgrade kit.


#154

I like Tiger + Eyes of the Chancellor since it protects it and gives you 5 evasive power.


#155

If there were plans to tweak the balance slightly, I’d ideally like Troq to be more playable outside of the starter set, which mostly means tweaking his abilities and spells.

Abilities wise I’m sure I once read the suggestion to make his midband deal 1 damage to “a building” which would give him a boost in terms of breaking tech buildings, hopefully without breaking the finesse vs bashing matchup.

Similar to this, could we change his pretty rubbish ultimate “Final Smash” to something like “Choose one Tech 0 unit, one Tech I unit and one Tech II unit. Destroy one chosen unit, return another chosen unit to its owners hand and take control of the remaining chosen unit”. So it basically does the same thing but you get the best combination of the effects at the time of casting. Would this make it playable?

The last thing I thought about was his 3 cost spell “The Boot” which just seems really underwhelming to me. My brother had the fun idea of changing it to “Trash a Tech 0 or Tech I unit, then trash this card.” which gives me the hilarious image of Troq booting the unit into orbit. It would also give him a uniquely disruptive role in the early game as he could deny strong/supporting options for the rest of the game. What do you guys think?


#156

I like these ideas! Just a couple thoughts, with the disclaimer that I haven’t played the Bashing vs Finesse matchup as much as the full game, especially Red vs Green:

  • I’ve always liked that change to Troq’s midband, though it seems like it could have potential to be oppressive in BvF since he can potentially destroy a Tech building by himself if he gets a clear shot at it (and there’s much less room to come back from losing a tech building with only one hero). I doubt it would be a problem since it requires getting Troq to Lv. 8 (so he has the 4 ATK needed) when there’s only one hero to kill on the other side for free levels, although even at midband he could break an Add-on by himself. It’s definitely a great one for the full game, and I’m interested in testing it for BvF.
  • That seems like a good change for Final Smash, and I’m not worried about it breaking the matchup because it’s so difficult and expensive to both get Troq to Lv. 8 and keep him alive long enough to cast the spell. As it’s printed now I don’t think you ever play for Final Smash, but maybe you would do so more often if it was powered up this way? I’m not too worried about it, though.
  • That’s hilarious, I love it! It also seems strictly better. Three gold to just kill most stuff at Tech 0 or I is a bad trade (the only 3-cost units in BvF are Fruit Ninja and Flagbearer, neither of which are all that worth using The Boot on, and 4-cost is limited to the full game, so you’re almost inevitably spending at least one more gold than the opponent did). Trashing the unit is obviously great flavor, and it also fills a unique roll within the game of permanently removing key early-game units. Trashing itself is obviously required for much the same reason as Nature Reclaims and Detonate, but that works out in The Boot’s favor since it probably doesn’t need to be cast more than twice per game anyway (how many Tech 0 or I units do you really need to trash?), so thinning your deck by trashing it is pretty much always a plus. All that said, I don’t know if it would be too good in BvF. It could potentially be used to trash one or both copies of Nimble Fencer, which would completely derail the Finesse game plan. Flagbearer thus becomes essential to keep pressure off… This seems interesting enough that I want to test it!

In summary, any change to the effect of Final Smash is almost always just a “win more” change because of the high gold cost and the difficulty of keeping Troq alive that long after paying to max him, the midband ability change nudges things in his favor a little bit and can sometimes be oppressive if things line up just right, and The Boot trashing is phenomenal flavor and a stronger card but warps the Bashing vs Finesse matchup enough that it especially needs testing compared to the other two.


#157

Yeah that was basically my reaction when he suggested it! It was immediately my favourite change to codex that I’d ever heard :joy:

Trashing Nimble Fencer in BvF was definitely my biggest concern balance wise, but the change seems so good that I really want to find a way to make it work. As you say it might just put Flagbearer into Finesse’s game plan. I hope that’s all it takes anyway.


#158

I’m in the middle of packing for a move so I can’t test with you right now, but we could do it in 3 or 4 weeks if you’re interested?


#159

I really like Boot trashing things. I, too, have concerns about trashing Nimble Fencer in BvF.

But there’s more to that. You can trash crucial Tech I’s from other Codexes, like Red’s only anti-air, or Hooded Exec. Even merely denying Tech/Scav bonuses might be strong.

Very dangerous change. But maybe still cool? 3g is no joke. You can buy Shadowblade for 3g. And target range is very constricted.

In BvF Boot plays important role of countering Two-Step shenanigans. In that case 3g is worth paying for.

Suggested Final Smash change is likely fine balance-wise, yet it compllicates the card a lot, which is bad for introductory product.

I also need to mention here that I stole EricF’s build [Bashing]/Demonology/Necromancy, and Bashing actually does carry there. Not Troq specifically though, rather Bashing Tech II combined with Garth’s maxband is strong. You tutor a specific threat from your flexible toolkit, picking up the one that’s most painful for your opponent. With Bashing there’s always one.

Neutral starter with Vandy is no joke as well. I’ve played, I think, 4 games total with this. Pretty fun.


#160

Ok sure I’ll concede Knight of the Conclave, but what about rickety mine haste?? It’s great, everyone will love it


#161

Rickety Mine haste will encourage even more dump your hand tactics than blood already employs. It kinda sounds like a trap, unless its paired with really good draw engine, in which case it would be super scary.