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I think it’s pretty much even. If you want any reasons I can go into them but you guys said a lot of words so that’s probably fine.


I mean, I think more words are good! There definitely feels like there’s a bunch of different interesting dynamics at play in the MU.


Well my take is: Oni’s tools don’t really ever lose to anyone else’s tools. They’re too good. The only thing he loses to is consistent and powerful dodges. Gwen’s dodges just aren’t nearly powerful enough. Unless you save up for Dreadlands Portal (which will take you 3-4 turns at fastest each time) you’ll have to settle for approximately 12-damage punishes. Nobody can beat Oni in neutral with consistent enough punishes to match him other than maybe Zane. What’s worse is that in this matchup unlike any other matchup Oni never actually has to throw Gwen because she will die eventually anyway, so unless he is at a huge life deficit he can just sit on his superior tools, superior dodges, and superior card efficient punish game.

Now that I’ve talked about it I don’t think it’s even after all. Oni wins this matchup. Thanks for making me use my words, Carpe.


When you put it that way, it’s kind of like the anti-Argagarg matchup.


The funny thing is, the model agrees with you (90% chance it’s between 5-5 and 7.5-2.5). This all came up because I played the Oni end against @flagrantangles Gwen, and lost it pretty solidly. Which I’m pretty sure is just a resounding indictment of my skills at Oni/arbitrary Yomi characters. :grin:


Hmmmm, it never feels that cumbersome from the Gwen side to me, but I’ve only played the matchup a handful of times.

In that case, what’s Onimaru vs Setsuki like? I assume it’s more even because Setsuki has better dodge punishes at least some of the time?


Haven’t played it tons, but yeah basically. Speed of the Fox changes a lot by giving her reloads and high damage dodges at the same time.

And like I mentioned, Q actually has respectable burst. I often consider jokering Q starters.


Where are these Oni players who never get hit by J starter all hanging out?


Honestly Setsuki not being on a clock is a huge game changer. Plus she almost never has to block while Gwen has to block sometimes. She can dodge endlessly and not have to worry about constantly dying. Plus her big combo starter naturally beats Oni’s aces and Q (without Final Authority). So I’d say Oni-Setsuki is probably even or slightly Setsuki favor.


I think it’s probably advantage for Oni, but J starter can be a legit threat in the MU. And yeah, Gwen has to dodge more than Gwen players might tend to, but she builds to AAA pretty well if she plays a slower game.


J starter can be a legit threat, which is why I don’t see Oni getting hit by it very regularly. Unless the Gwen player is tight on her reads she’ll land it less than 25% of the time she plays it, since Oni barely ever has to throw I would think the only occasions that he will play a card that loses to it is on General’s Armor attempts and maybe the odd raw 10 attack.


I guess. We both agree it’s Oni advantaged, so this is just quibbling on my part.

If the Oni player is doing almost nothing besides blodge and Q/FA, Gwen has fairly safe answers to that, but it requires her to play a slower gameplan than she may be used to. If Oni is doing blodge/QFA, then Gwen doesn’t need anything in her deck except dodges and throws/AAA.


I mean that’s pretty much how every character plays against Onimaru in a nutshell. Some characters are just better at it than others though hence his matchup spread.