Matchup Discussion

Yomi
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I was surprised to learn that we don’t have a thread specifically dedicated to discussing matchups. There is the Matchup Database but that’s not quite what I was after so I figured I’d just make a new topic and then we can go on a wild ride together!

I love having these kinds of discussion topics partly because it’s interesting to read people’s thoughts and perspectives and it’s also a good way to ask for advice if you’re struggling with a particular matchup.

In that vein, I just realized I have no idea what the Zane/BBB matchup is like. Would @ClanNatioy or maybe @CKR have any SWEET THOUGHTS?!

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This MU is generally easy for Zane. I do remember having Mad King’s BBB doing a no DMG run on my Zane, though. I know what I want to do as Zane. Win early combats with 5/7 throw or 2/K. Dodging into K is slightly less effective, but is a decent idea if I am scared of being attacked or don’t want to run into blocks. I want to try and get some Meaty attempts before BBB gets Aces.

Honestly, the only time that I remember losing this MU is when I let BBB build a big enough hand to threaten Aces and have the ability to power up for them again. Also, losing a lot of combats at range can make it difficult.

Edit:

I would also like to add that BBB’s blocks aren’t ideal for Zane. The most disposable blocks are the 4 and 8 block. This can lead to massive DMG from a 9 meaty attack. However, BBB can sacrifice one of his better blocks to keep his robot body from being busted into a pile of gears.

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That makes sense. I was initially thinking that BBB’s Aces would be pretty good against Zane in that he can chuck out single A’s to try and control the neutral and beat Zane’s pokes and then use Piston Hurricane or Overdrive+Jack against meaties, but then I was thinking about Crash Bomb and I figure that’s a big pain in the buns.

Besides, against that I suppose Zane can just block until Anarchy especially because it can be super scary to throw Zane.

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I think blocking is way better for BBB than using Piston Hurricane. It is scary even for Zane to throw BBB. In general Zane’s safest play would be to use a 2. The problem is that if BBB blocks it then Zane has more difficult decisions to make and BBB is slowly becoming more dangerous. BBB probably should prefer to use a normal attack to duff throws or block.

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I actually have been meaning to add something to the Matchup Database for recording tidbits like this. (I wanted to embed an actual discussion thread onto the matchup page as well, but SG didn’t want to enable the embedding, which I don’t blame them for).

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I haven’t played in a long while but the mu is butt for BBB.

Zane wrecks in neutral, it’s a horrifying place to be. As bad as neutral is KD turns for BBB are obviously even worse. BBB only has AA to beat Meatys so while single A is a good attack for BBB while standing it is hard to justify using it because you’ll need it to threaten any sort of a mix up while KD. Overdrive isn’t a strong option for dealing with Meatys because Zane J will interrupt it. It is a little something but not great.

Zane has loads of dodges and they’re card neutral so unlike much of the cast Zane can dodge for days against BBB and catching a block with your normals is extremely difficult.

Range isn’t even that bad for Zane. Again dodges for days and Crashbomb is the single worst card in the game to lose range to. Zane gold burst is probably the scariest gold burst in game so losing to that is pretty bad.

BBB just has a way harder time winning combats and his wins are much less impactful and Zane has 85 health so yeah, it sucks.

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Other relevant things:

  1. C&D is super good against BBB. If BBB desperation powers up for AA when he’s KD and delays playing it, BBB probably loses AA anyway as soon as Zane wins combat. Also the fact that BBB’s crucial face cards are often known/recurring makes it easy for Zane to identify and destroy good hands.

  2. Knocking Zane down is pretty good for BBB. Robo Headbutt is an odd mixup normal option at close, and at range 3-attack becomes 1.0 speed so you can give Zane a taste of his own medicine. Plus it disables Zane’s dodges.

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Based on all of this, I’m mildly interested in playing it from the BBB side. It reminds me of playing against Zane with Quince but with like…a real answer to meaties, even if it’s one that’s hard to acquire and hold onto. :wink: Overall, the MU sounds mildly interesting from the BBB side before you account for the fact that Zane’s tools are overwhelming.

And because I’m considering not suiciding Quince against Zanes in tournament for the rest of my days, how do people feel about Grave versus Zane? The things that immediately come to mind for me are that Zane’s dodges and, consequently, his throws are pretty powerful whereas Grave’s blocks are quite potent. Grave’s counter must do quite a bit of work here in allowing him not to lose his Aces to C&D but is ultimately so costly that it can be hard to rely upon. Meaties can be answered relatively easily with Aces and Queens. I wonder how our resident Grave players @Legion and @Attilian feel about the MU.

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being a zane hater i may be biased, but here is my 2 cents.
On paper grave is advantaged in the mu (5.5 IIRC) but imho irl is far from good.
One thing that many forget is that while grave blocks are strong, zane too has very scary blocks, since by building a huge hand can guarantee the MA and pulverize grave.
Also Zane has superior burst, since he can dish easily almost 30 dmg (25 via throw) per combo, hence grave does not actually have the time to build a good hand. The counter is good but is costly, and rarely worth the trouble. Zane has dominant speed in both normals and throws, and his 2 is very oppressive. Overall, i do not consider the MU grave adv. imho is 6-0 zane at best.

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Old timers may remember that I have a bit of experience in the Grave vs Zane mu.

The early game is rough for Grave. Zane is like a grappler that does damage, has some fast attacks, and card neutral dodges. Grave will usually have to lay down some pretty uncomfortable normal attacks in order to survive.

Grave T is better used for dealing with Crashbombs than for stopping C&D. T is also more unreliable because Grave K is actually a really good card in the mu. Martial Mastery is pretty handy for checking if MA is real and losing his fastest throw doesn’t hurt so much because of grappler.

I think how the mu goes is bad for Grave in the early game then pretty even in the mid game then a stand off between TPoS and MA in the late game which favors Zane because his ultra and throws are faster.

I thought I had more interesting things to say but the memory is a little fuzzy. It’s been awhile. I think Legion covered it pretty well, it seems like Grave should win it but Zane’s options are strong and his early game is really solid. Grave can just die before he even gets going. I’d probably but it closer to 5.5 Zane advantaged though.

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Grave is one character I have put almost no time into but I think is pretty cool. Since there’s some high level Graves talking in this thread, what do yall think about his other 20XX mus Geiger/Troq?

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(reply to Leontes from Summer Smash thread)

I think BBB is actually quite a strong character, but unlike other characters who do loads of damage or whatever, he doesn’t “feel” very strong when you are playing him. everything feels like an uphill battle (even when it’s not true) and like all your best laid plans are about to be unhinged.So even though I’ve had very good results with BBB I find myself shying away from actually depending on him… too stressful for me… but I do think he’s generally undestimated

As for the Quince matchup, I remmeber when the new characters were about to be released, there being an argument between Aphotix and MadKing about the matchup… IIRC Aphotix said it was very, very bad for Quince – not sure if they actually disagreed on the direction of the matchup or what, maybe it was just about “how bad” it was, heh. They had an exhibition match to settle it. After playing BBB for a while, it did seem like a hard matchup for Quince, so I’m not too surprised by those numbers

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Hey flagrant! I hope you’re keeping well. Here’s a ridiculously late response:

My memory is similar to most MU charts, that this MU is pretty close to even.

Grave is smushed by Zane’s throws and consequently building a hand isn’t so easy. But Grave suffering in the throw game is something he regularly lives with. The 2.4 speed on Grave’s Jack is not as awful as it looks, only being undercut by Zane’s 2, K and Aces and its ability to beat Zane’s grappler hand-building game is very useful.

I think Grave’s counter is rarely worth using in this match - I’d most often rather keep the hand size and keep the face cards. But Martial Mastery is great, it foils Max Anarchy games and also occasionally makes life horrible for KD Zane.

Grave has great access to speed 1.0 and lower attacks and this is huge in the MU. The fact Zane can’t consistently press the KD advantage is what brings this back to even from what would otherwise be horrible.

/my thoughts

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It’s been a while since we’ve had any matchup discussion so I figure I’ll jump start this again!

Troq, Zane, and Setsuki have always been thorns in my side, especially when playing Quince. Every now and again I’ll have a good go of it, but most of the time, it’s just an anxious nightmare for me. However, I’ve really been learning to love Persephone against the lot of them. Persephone is fragile, but her vortex is so powerful as to make up for that, in my opinion. That said, I haven’t had much experience with Persephone against say, @mysticjuicer and his bully Troq but I did fight @Caralad and that felt pretty doable to me.

Against Troq, I like to think the name of the game is to push Troq off throwing by threatening Mistress’ Command and Power Lash, both of which are powerful openers for Persephone. Furthermore, they help her protect her blocks so she can build a big enough hand to sustain her vortex. I like to spice things up with Rising Pleasure since it’s the dominant attack in the matchup and there’s nothing better than outspeeding Up Hawk. On the other hand, what really makes Troq a pain is that dealing with him while he’s knocked down is an utter terror. I think the most conservative options for Troq are block, J, and Q. The latter two really shut down Persephone’s cross up game while the block entices you to go for it. Unfortunately, Persephone doesn’t have the HP to be wrong that often so you really have to make your hits and your dominance count. Overall, it feels relatively even to me but it’s hard to say since Persephone’s vortex is basically good against everyone except Vendetta.

Persephone versus Zane is balanced on a knife’s edge. Persephone is probably the one character besides Zane himself who can really take advantage of Zane’s weaknesses. She can control his draws and, via dominance, practically guarantee having an odd cross-up. That said, Persephone’s HP stands in her way since Zane can practically kill her in three decent to good combats. 4-5 is basically death provided jokers don’t get in the way. In this way, the opening game is especially crucial to navigate. They both have to take calculated, surgical risks. You can’t play too conservatively, especially as Persephone. I will say, I think it’s perfectly fine to just dump Zane’s cards with Bare Your Soul, especially his K’s, J’s, and A’s. Getting rid of his knockdown hinders him significantly while throwing his A’s in the discard lets you know when you need to worry about Anarchy. Overall, I’d say that Persephone has the stronger vortex, but Zane has a much faster one and you have to play accordingly. On balance, I’d say this is probably Zane favored, but if the draws align, Persephone can really give Zane hell.

Persephone against Setsuki reminds me a great deal of fighting against Zane, but Setsuki’s vortex and options are a bit better. They both have a 0.0 speed attack to outspeed On Your Knees, but Zane’s takes an enormous amount of resources to manage while Setsuki’s is just dependent on getting a Queen. Icing on the cake is that Setsuki’s Queen also enables her vortex. Much like Zane, the opening is crucial. It’s at this stage of the game that you really have to show what you’re gonna do. You can easily end up on the back foot and if you don’t recover, you will almost certainly lose. Bare Your Soul is essential in this MU so that you can throw away Setsuki’s answers to your AA. Furthermore, you really need to scare Setsuki off throws by threatening Mistress’ Command. I like to do it at times where I don’t think the punishment will be too severe such as when Setsuki has a low hand or if I have the impression that it’s full of throws. Either way, this matchup is probably in Setsuki’s favor but if you can catch Setsuki on a low hand with no blocks, then you can vortex her to death relatively easily.

I’ve also been enjoying Jaina as a counterpick to Troq, but I don’t have as many thoughts or experiences regarding that. What do the lot of you think?

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I don’t have much experience with that MU, but it doesn’t seem so bad for Troq. The hardest MUs for Troq are the ones where blocking is discouraged and the opponent’s attacks really hurt. Onimaru and BBB are the big ones, but Geiger is also surprisingly hard for him to fight. I’ve never seen Jaina be a particularly good bully, so I don’t think it’s too bad for Troq. But what do I know?

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IMO Jaina is an excellent counterpick to Troq and probably around 5.75 or 6-4 in her favor. The reasons for this being:

  1. DPs that beat or trade favorably with everything Troq has. Troq’s good move AA being 1.0 makes it less threatening than Rook’s AA at 0.8.
  2. Recurring attacks that do good amount of chip and are at a decent speed. Even when they are outsped by Troq’s faces (JQ) they don’t lead to much damage.
  3. Attaching/discarding blocks is actually a relevant downside in this matchup because Troq can’t build a large scary hand easily against Jaina like other grapplers can.

The one main thing Jaina has to worry about is Troq’s super efficient dodges. Navigate around that (having a Joker makes this easier) and the matchup is well in your favor.

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I had been musing about this idea. I thought it must be at least slightly Jaina favored. I will probably test the theory in the near future.

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My data agrees. With 90% confidence, the MU is between 4.5-5.5 and 7-3, with an overall expected winrate of ~60%.

EDIT: Now if only she didn’t get bodied by much of the rest of the cast…

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Is Jaina Troq’s worst matchup in the current meta?

Ban Jaina from 20xx.

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I think Oni gets that honor, actually.

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