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Matchup Discussion


#21

All I’m hearing is that Jaina and Persephone are looking quite attractive as Troq CP’s to meeeeeeeee.

On a more serious note, my initial thoughts were really in sync with what @migohunter outlined. And icing on the cake is the ability to punish dodges with smoldering embers. It may not be much, but we’ll take every torched hoof we can get!


#22

I still think BBB is Troq’s worst MU with Oni as a close second. Except when bugs make range randomly not trigger, of course.


#23

Is that a thing? I’ve never even heard of that happening.


#24

Describe that in more detail. I’ve haven’t seen a range glitch in quite a while; I was pretty sure we caught them all, but it’s possible we missed a couple.


#25

Whenever I run a BBB normal into a block, I don’t go into range. I’m pretty sure it happened a handful of times in me and ArthurWynne’s match.


#26

Are you on iOS, by chance? I’ve definitely gotten range by normaling into a block in the steam client.


#27

i spectated the whole thing, such thing never happened. The replay is still available, tho.


#28

Yes, I am on iOS. My mistake then. I guess I don’t understand range rules as well as I thought, because there were several instances where I was confused about why we hadn’t gone to range.


#29

Link the replay, I’ll trawl through it later and see what I can learn


#30

How do I do that?


#31

to get to range there are only 3 ways:
1)hit with a normal (2-3-4-6; 7 is a special card and works diffently), either by winning combat or hitting a block.
2) K throw
3) overdrive-> dodge into K.


#32

I’m not sure that Perse is great against Troq, but she might be better than I’ve thought.


#33

Imo she is not. Too brittle, troq needs just a few faces and good moves to rip her to shreds


#34

I would agree that she’s not great against Troq, but I think she’s better than she’s given credit for. She’s got the two fastest attacks in the matchup, both of which beat all of Troq’s face cards. Furthermore, of Troq’s face cards, the only one I’m ever worried about is his King.


#35

the trick to beating troq as perse is drawing AA early and 10ing all his dodges out of his deck. Then you just play AA forever and win every combat even when you lose combat. Kappa.

Kappa


#36

Just thought I’d chime in way late but with such a lopsided advantage state and .2 speed super BBB could never possibly be bad.


#37

I’ve played almost 0 of it but there is just no way Troq doesn’t completely destroy Perse. Midori too. I agree word for word with everything Migo said about Jaina-Troq.


#38

Troq has to be WAY more careful than usual to stay upright and be Especially defensive, but it’s not too bad for Troq all in all as long as you’re very careful.


#39

Since I’ve now played it twice, I’m curious what people think of the Gwen/Onimaru matchup. I’ve only played it from the Gwen side of things but it seems great there.

You can get away with more blocks than you might thing because you have stupendous punishes for guard crush attempts in Chains of Ice or even just regular ass straights. Furthermore, your 10-block is really excellent for when Onimaru wants to go in with the Guard Crush/Final Authority mixup.

To top it all off, Gwen has tons of dodges. She may not have particularly excellent dodge punishes, but, hey, bleeding resources from your opponent is fine. I think that in the early game, you can simply throw after a dodge for the mixups. Later, damage becomes the priority and I would go for J+, AA, or AAA.

Gwen’s Queen isn’t amazing, but it’s fine in the early game. You can play it to beat out Oni’s Queen and Ace which are fine wins and if Oni uses FA on a Queen, that’s basically a win too (unless Clockwork soldiers are in the mix).

I think you really just have to be careful about getting dodged since Oni hits like a mountain.


#40

I haven’t played it a lot, but I don’t think it looks particularly bad for Oni. He can afford to play patient, while Gwen loses 10 life every 5 turns. He’ll want to play a lot more like he’s playing against Zane blodge, 7-throw is very good here.

Also, outside of Q, the speed advantage gets less clear. Q and A beat her A and her other face cards, J beats her J, AA beats her J. 3 attack also beats J, which can be relevant. And FA leads to 10ish damage, plus clockwork damage, as you noted, plus a potential pump for J or K.

And this is where the crux of the MU is, I think: Gwen has effectively 70ish HP, and getting hit by 20 damage is almost 1/3rd of that. Oni has a lot of ways to deal 1/3rd to 1/4th of Gwen’s health in a very card efficient way, and he can usually do it by dodging. Given that you can only joker twice, you’re going to have to raw throw more, which Oni can beat with faster throws or with an attack for 10-20 damage.

In that respect it’s like the Setsuki MU, with two big changes. One, Gwen’s dodge follow-up is worse since she doesn’t have a way to full combo off it. Two, Gwen’s Q is an ender for 10 damage max. Good “get off me” button, but you can’t threaten much off it. I’d be okay losing an attack to Q in most circumstances because you can’t blow me up with it. Gwen’s best combo starter is K, which I can beat with Q or A, and her next best combo starter, 2 attack, also loses to AA.

I don’t know if it’s necessarily good for Oni, but it’s not bad, imo.