You really think Setsuki shouldn’t have a 7.x-speed throw? That seems knee-jerk to me.
If we’re going that route I think it’s better to just slow her throws to .6 or something like Gwen, but I honestly don’t think we should do either.
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Naw, she should definitely have a 7 throw. I just hate that she has infinity of them. lol
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I agree, it was just an idea that came to mind. I’m actually in the camp of liking Setsuki, but I agree with juicer that having infinite 7 throws is probably too good. The more I think about it, the more I like moving Bag of Tricks to her 8, since that gives a new decision between getting back her fastest throw and doing a loop.
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Basically the cool fun version of Setsuki in the cast is Persephone, imo. I love her and her whole shtick is having a billion of the same option over and over again! But she feels like you can play a valuation game against her where Setsuki doesn’t (to me). Partly because she digs through her deck so slowly that she has lower effective HP than Setsuki does, so you can just kill her.
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Sure, they have similarities, but Setsuki is rushdown, Persephone is control.
I would say the “fixed version” of Setsuki is Gwen. (High speeds, brutal combos, lots of card flow, but she doesn’t have the recursion so she has to play a valuation game, she has to care about her hand size, and she has slow throws so there aren’t as many 50/50s.
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Of course, it’s telling that both Gwen and Persephone are considered among the weaker characters and Setsuki is considered one of the best…
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Yeah, I was just trying to talk my way through why I hate recursion on Setsuki and not on Persephone/Gloria.
Re: your suggestion of moving her ability off 7 and onto her 8: I honestly don’t know. I’m being honest when I say I cannot evaluate this character objectively. I hate Setsuki.
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I’m going to put this forward again because it seems like everyone missed it. (Or maybe it was so incredibly stupid that you all tactfully ignored it so I wouldn’t be embarassed?)
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The first one is definitely a nerf, but again, I cannot objectively say whether or not any nerfs to Setsuki are appropriate because I cannot evaluate her as she currently exists.
The second I don’t like just because I feel like it’s weird. It just puts more emphasis on whether or not you find a joker or not. Enh.
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Of course it’s a nerf, but as Nejima-san said, it’s a nerf to her card flow, to make playing against her less RPS-like and playing as her involve more decision-making. It’s not about the nerf so much as quality of life and depth of gameplay. You’ll probably have to buff her damage to compensate but that comes after.
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I know. I’m saying “if you put any nerf in front of me, I am incapable of saying whether it is a fair and good nerf to the character because she needs it, or whether I just hate her so much I will take any chance to make her bad.” I’ll bow out of any Setsuki discussion now, because I’m not actually helping at all.
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Sorry it took me a long time to figure out how to quote posts on this bad forum hosting software.
Yes it’s very necessary to have her 7* ability. I think people have a tendency to overestimate how much reliable damage an average Setsuki hand really has, because they only remember the times where they get blown up by throw-6-K++ for 23 or Q+±6-K for 20.
This is tough to analyze. I would say that Setsukis don’t really use Bag of Tricks a lot in the first place, except in specific matchups or if you happen to have it. That’s because Setsuki’s opponents don’t tend to throw her very often, so what happens it that if her opponents do throw her, it is with a 7-throw, and Setsukis need to throw with their 7s more often than not because they need to beat opposing throws sometimes. If 7* were to not recur other 7s, it would affect her endgame the most, and it would actually become quite unreliable, whereas right now she is pretty stable. Interesting change but it’s hard to say one way or the other without thinking about it more.
I would just like to say if you’re picking up 7QK as Setsuki and your opponent has more than 25hp left, chances are you aren’t making the right decision.
This seems alright. I would’ve even suggested moving it to her T and move Smoke Bomb to her 9. I think this is one of those changes that is harder to gauge without playtesting though, so I cannot comment on how good or bad this change would be. I am still in favor of just nerfing her damage a bit and see how she plays out. There’s no need for kneejerk reactions without seeing if what we have now is fine, which I think it might be.
This seems very unhealthy at first glance. It means she gets pairs and trips for Aces more often, and Aces are the only awful threat Setsuki has in terms of damage. Her plan then becomes “collect two Aces and hit with them every other turn.” Whether she becomes better or worse is a different question that is difficult to answer without playing, but she definitely becomes more unhealthy of a character with this change because she either becomes too strong with her Ace flow or too weak because she has too many awkward hands.
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SOTF drawing 7 cards would likely be too big a nerf.
I like the idea behind the second change, because I think her insulation from playing into jokers is one of her big sticking points as a boring character. However, if you think about it, this only delays SOTF by a turn. If she dumps her hand into a joker and doesn’t draw up, then next combat she only has one card, so unless she blocks, she is guaranteed to get SOTF at the end of THAT turn. This is either not enough of a punishment, because she gets SOTF anyway, or this is too much of a punishment, because we are condemning an (officially) 70 HP character to more or less one combat turn per game where she will have only one card to play.
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Well, I know it only delays SOTF by a turn, but if that means a likely combat loss or being forced to block and be stuck the next turn as well… the idea was, that will be a pretty severe punishment that will make her think twice about dumping her hand into facedowns.
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I just remembered this from the Yomi translations topic:
i no longer support moving bag of tricks off of 7
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On second thought, I don’t see how this isn’t a major buff. She would have insane amounts of damage in her hand, and the awkward hand problem is solved by doing the thing that Setsukis never do: block for a turn, and then she can trigger SoTF in two turns instead of one.
No I don’t think this is the right change either. This doesn’t sound like a fun interaction for Setsuki to deal with, because if she combos into a Joker, suddenly she has to survive a combat with only one card in hand? No thanks.
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My answer to 7 would be, on a turn in which she uses 7 she draws one less card, that would be in a world where my other suggested change does not happen. This would reduce the amount of times that setsuki draws a reliable non-7 throw outside of the cards she puts on top so she would have to either sacrifice the loop if she wanted to throw or not throw to preserve the loop.
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I agree that that particular change is not the best, but I do want to point out that there is no character in Yomi for whom playing into a joker is a fun interaction. 
I think it would be healthy if Setsuki had to be at least a little more mindful of whether or not the facedown is real.
I have to join with @mysticjuicer, @Niijima-san and others in saying I also loathe Setsuki. It really does suck to not be able to yomi, while playing yomi.
One thing that always bugged me about Setsuki’s 7* was that she can recur AA while Perse’s Dominance and Quince’s Two Truths are restricted to differing ranks. Two Truths even excludes aces.
Any thoughts on how restricting to one card of each rank, or excluding aces would play out?
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Setsuki cares about running into Jokers unnecessarily when it puts good/efficient options in her opponent’s hand. She does have to evaluate whether the lack of follow-up is worth giving up an opportunity to SotF on the next turn. It just ends up being that she cares much less about that sort of thing compared to other characters.
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