Right, but Setsuki players have to be greedy to get their damage in before they die in general.
Sure. I just think if that MU is Oni advantaged, itâs because Sets players donât know how to play against Onimaru more than anything about the actual MU itself. But also, I cannot play well against Setsuki to save my damn life, so⌠korean_shrug.emoji
I was actually typing out the exact same thing. To add on a bit, it just feels like she ignores around 50% of the core game mechanics:
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She doesnât really have to manage a hand at all. If she wins combat and she can dump her hand, she should. Speaking of:
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She wins combat way too easily in most MUs. She has multiple speed dominant combo starter attacks AND the speed dominant throws in most MUs. This means WAY too many combats feel like a 50/50 where you either guess correctly or Setsuki blitzes her way into a 20+ damage combo. This wouldnât be a problem if you could effectively use valuation to over the course of several combats to figure out what she likely has in hand, BUT:
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Those same 20+ damage combos cycle out her hand, rendering most of your valuation useless. Moreover, because those 20+ damage combos let her draw a new hand:
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She can mostly ignore facedowns. Why would she care about playing into a joker if her hand size is never going to suffer from wrongly playing a combo? And the other thing about jokers:
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Setsuki has really good card draw and is much more likely than the rest of the cast to draw into her jokers. So she, in practice, has more than just 70 health.
Overall, I just feel like Setsuki gets combat wins too easily; deals more damage than she should given the ease with which she can win combat; and she is boring to play against and as because many combats are 50/50s and she basically doesnât have to pay attention to jokers/facedowns.
EDIT: And I say this as someone who has begun using Setsuki in tournaments, with good success, without having to put in almost any practice time with her. :shrugs:
4 Likes
Onimaru is probably one of the better characters at punishing bad Setsuki hands. Furthermore, he has efficient, high-damage throw punishes with normal attacks, which enable and fuel his high-damage dodges.
2 Likes
Again, I recognize that this is probably my own issues talking, but I honestly feel that if Oni beats Setsuki with an attack reveal, thatâs a game he should have lost but he got lucky cause the Sets player fucked up.
Okay, just spitballing here:
What if we made the following two changes:
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Speed of the Fox draws you back up to 7 cards when it triggers, so itâs unlikely she can immediately get out again and itâs possible to actually learn things about her hand. This also means her plan is no longer automatically âdump as many cards as you can all the time.â
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Speed of the Fox does not trigger (Iâm not sure how youâd word this but Iâm sure thereâs a way) if she gets Blue Bursted, so she has to respect facedowns.
You would probably have to make some changes to some numbers to make her game plan still work, but it should alleviate the issues while making her broad-strokes outline stay the same?
Isnât this equivalent to claiming that Setsuki screws up by throwing Onimaru at all??
Itâs equivalent to me claiming I suck at beating Setsuki.
2 Likes
I think if you change K to 4+3 and Surprise Gift to 16, mathematically it basically means she have to win about 0.5 combats more, so this seems like a fine nerf? Granted those are total spitballs for numbers, but I would estimate that Setsuki loses about 4 to 5 damage per game if you make these changes.
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I will literally take anything, tbqh, but I am the least objective about that character. My secret dream is she doesnât have her 7 ability, but itâs probably necessary for her not to be trash. Maybe?
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Yes, it is. And itâs also actually one of the few ways to get information about whatâs in her hand, so I think that particular ability is great.
3 Likes
The Sets hate surprises me lol. I understand everyone will have characters they despise and all, but imo Sets has an interesting and unique design that feels right for a ninja and seems to have a high skill cap as well. Moreso than Zane and Troq anyway.
Like, look at Troq. Out of all the possible grappler designs we could have gotten in V2, why did we get literally the most boring character imaginable? /rant over
@cpat Do you think 7 not being able to recur other 7s is a good change? Iâve heard it proposed and it definitely nerfs her, but maybe that is an interesting part of her kit where she can set up a vortex if she avoids combat-revealing her 7 (which is usually her only speed dominant throw) and works for it? Idk. I like AA -> 15 damage and maybe this 7* ability change as nerfs.
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Basically, Iâm mad I canât outvalue her. Like I can never go âaha, I have played in such a way that I lose only to Qs, and now she has run out of Qs and I have a chance to make a comeback.â She never runs out options and itâs difficult to put her into positions where she has a known weak hand when playing against a strong player.
Like, I know a lot of people say her hand management is easy, but I actually disagree. Itâs very easy to make avoidable mistakes with Setsuki. Itâs one of the things that makes Fivec such a nightmare - he is incredibly good at avoiding conrnering himself compared to other Setsuki players.
Without 7, at least her options would become constrained in some lategame scenarios, if youâve gotten lucky or found your jokers early. With 7, it just doesnât happen.
3 Likes
I had to think about it more than I expected, but I think I prefer her gameplay with 7*-recursion to without it. Not being able to do the vortex would make her Queens less oppressive, but it would also take away yet another decision from her play. Whether to grab that 7 and when to stop requires quite a bit of skill to handle optimally.
Great. I know she has the dominant attack, the dominant throw, a way to dump off either reveal. Over and over again until I guess right. Super interesting.
Yeah, about that⌠what did you think of the top-of-my head suggestion I made afew posts back?
You say boring, I say conservative. We finally got a control deck that wasnât also high variance. (I agree that he was definitely overtuned, but Iâm really happy with even the nerfed version of Troq that is emerging from this discussion, and would definitely continue to play him in this v3 world.)
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Also, speaking of dominant. What if we moved her 7* to her 8* so it isnât the dominant throw sheâs recurring, just a good one?
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Sure, but at least I feel like I can actually outplay rather than outguess a Troq opponent. I would play one hundred matches against Troq rather than a single game against Setsuki, to be honest.
2 Likes
I think that idea has some merit. What about instead / in addition to that, if her 7-throw got a name and changed stats, including a slower speed?