I dunno, I just feel like AA already does what J does, but more efficiently. Maybe I’m wrong. AA is even a better neutral reveal than J, speed-wise.
I mean, I can list all the things I like and work about Vendetta here, but I’m not the only person to consider in Yomi (I guess). One of them is that you don’t have to power up that often because of things like J ender. Also, I don’t think anyone wants to give Ven more ways to knock people down. His K loop on KD is actually pretty annoying and rough.
VenDamage a thing, and J is a big part of that. Plus it leads to a lot of situations on facedown turns where the Ven player has to make tough decisions on whether to dump his entire hand for damage or leave it on the table.
I honestly don’t think he needs a tutor either. I like that you have to take the tools you get and turn them into something amazing.
I honestly (completely honest) don’t think Ven needs anything, I just think Setsuki needs to be worse. That is the only buff Ven needs.
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Fair enough! Would you say Setsuki is Ven’s worst MU? Worse than Valerie or Grave?
Definitely. Grave sucks too, Val is bad but as I put in an earlier post, manageable. I’d say Setsuki then Grave but Ven’s problems with Grave are too many uppercuts and a counter for Acro, and I don’t think either of them are going away. Setsuki has a counter, outspeeds him in both throws and attacks, goes even in damage on both, and has higher card drawing power. It’s honestly ludicrous.
I was thinking about Setsuki, and maybe just have her draw until her hand is 5 cards on SotF instead of drawing 5, so saving cards gives her a little bit worse card flow? I know my dream is gutting her completely, but I’m trying to hold my feelings inside here.
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Does Setsuki need to be worse for any reason other than the Ven match-up though? It seems to me that she’s in a good place, although I wouldn’t mind a change that made her deck a little less “autopilot”.
IMO she DEFINITELY needs to be worse, and not just for Ven’s sake. I may be in the minority there though.
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I don’t remember if you were here, but this nerf actually happened during the v2 discussion. The result was that she gets about 3 or 4 less damage per hand, and she becomes utterly unplayable.
I think that Setsuki probably needs a minor damage nerf. Maybe put Starlight Kick to 4+3 and Surprise Gift to 16, since those are the two biggest tools that enable her damage.
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Well she gets 3 or 4 less damage per hand where she saves a card. If she goes out she still draws the full 5 cards. In my suggestion anyway. I’d prefer a card flow nerf to a damage nerf because it’s just super irritating to play against a character who just has an entirely new hand every turn, but I’ll take what I can get.
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I also hate the crap out of Setsuki, but I feel like it’s my fault for being bad against her, so I can’t really be objective about what she needs or doesn’t need. I just hate her so damn much.
Not contributing anything useful; just here to say that I 100% agree.
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Maybe, maybe Setsuki is top-tier in the new meta with the nerfs to Troq and presumed nerfs to Zane.
But really… so what? Someone has to be top-tier and it’s not like she’ll suddenly run the table.
I’m not aware that she has any particularly disgusting MUs either. Why does she need to be worse?
I wouldn’t be averse to a change that gave her a few more decisions to make about her play, but it’s hard to see how to do that without derailing her design.
And I like her design, it’s neat to have a character with such completely different hand management concerns from the rest of the cast.
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The way you feel about BBB is how I feel about Setsuki. I can’t say anything nice about that character. If I lose against her I feel cheated, and if I win against her I feel like I got lucky. If I win with her I feel like I RNG’d my opponent to death, if I lose with her I’m incredulous that my opponent lucked out.
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Luckily even with Zane and Troq nerfs, I think Zane and Troq are probably still good enough to be competitive against her. Maybe Midori becomes a consistent pick against her as well.
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She is already secret top-tier. She is the only character in the game that doesn’t have a hard counterpick. Even Troq only beats her because Troq just has too many good moves, not because he has any sort of character trait that exploits her.
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Right now, I think Setsuki’s disadvantaged MUs are Grave, Midori, Lum, Quince, Onimaru, and Troq. Troq is the only 4-6.
Meanwhile, she beats Jaina, DeGrey, Geiger, Argagarg, BBB, Menelker, Persephone, Gloria, Gwen, and Vendetta.
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I see. So the Speed of the Fox card churn is that much of an issue… trouble is, what is Setsuki when you take that away? You basically have to make a completely new character I think.
Whenever I see someone say that Oni is advantaged against her, I just shut down. I just can’t. That MU is free except sometimes Oni guesses right enough to kill her because Setsuki players get greedy.
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Removing Setsuki from Yomi would make me enjoy the game so much more than I already do.
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I’ll trade you for BBB. 
But how do we convince the rest of the gang?
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lol
This thread: so let’s talk about [character X]
This thread: reasonable discussion ensues
This thread: hey what about Setsuki
edit: not to imply that discussion about Setsuki has been unreasonable, just thought it was funny that Setsuki is so divisive a character. Which, honestly, if Fivec wasn’t so damn good I don’t think I’d have a problem with her, because I’d assume she’s solidly mid-tier.
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