Cool. I’ve never been a Miracle Grow player, so I’ll take Daymare. rn 44
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Cool! rn 13 so please go ahead!
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Flagstone Garrison : You mean - “Your units can NO longer have haste" , do you?
I do @olompumpa , yes 
Unfortunately can’t edit my post any longer to correct it though
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@thehug0naut here probably is a good place for discussing our balance patch.
I’d like to reiterate:
I second @Bryce_The_Rice that we should nerf present.
I also suggest that we should nerf finesse and Garrison.
I have no suggestion for present yet, But my suggestions for the other two specs are (without thinking about the exact wording):
- Maestro: change to cost reduction to 1 gold less for playing virtuosos
- Limit the number of cards drawn off a Garrison in a single turn to three
Reasoning: both nerfs will still allow for great benefit in early games, but it significantly reduces the possibility of getting off these completely busted turns.
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my first thoughts for nerfing present are that I would sugget the following two nerfs while I’m still a bit afraid that this will not be sufficient
- increase cost of TD to 3
- change Max’s maxband that you have to pay 1 gold in case you want to flicker something
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Making an ability that triggers at maxband cost gold is too inelegant. We can just make him maxband at 6.
However, I wouldn’t want to do too many changes at once. Something I think we should target is Tricycloid’s stats. Doing 3 indirect damage and then being a really efficient blocker is insane value for the card. Making it 2/3 or 3/2 would go a long way to curbing present’s incredibly strong combination of attack and defence.
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I think this goal is excellent, but hard do elegantly. The best I can come up with is to borrow from Reteller of Truths: “The first two times each turn you play a unit from hand, draw a card”. That limits the card draw to 4 max in a turn when you have both Garrisons up before playing any units. It also means you can’t benefit from drawing a second Garrison after you’ve played 2x units.
The other (alternative) thing I’m kind of partial to is making Garrison Legendary.
Would either of those changes mean we wouldn’t need to have a nerf around haste? I feel that one is kind of inelegant already, even I understand it’s need.
For Present I think that the first step should be adding 1g each to Geiger Maxband and TD. Getting the cost of the combos up should slow down how quickly it comes out and make it easier to defend. We can always move TD to 4g if that still isn’t enough.
I agree with @Bryce_The_Rice on nerfing the stats for Tricycloid. A 3/2 would make it the same statline as Sentry, which I think makes some flavour sense.
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Now as I say, don’t be hasty. Let’s not overcorrect.
Start small, test it out, then adjust as necessary.
My goal has always been the minimum amount of changes to curb the most overpowered things.
I don’t really care about buffs honestly. There are some things that could use it, but most things are viable situationally.
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Yes I agree. I’m just floating a bunch of thoughts so we can mull them over.
If I had to choose one change for Present I would probably add 1g to TD. I just think it’s way more undercosted.
I’d also like to get input from @dwarddd on Purple changes, if he’s game to comment
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That’s true, TD is probably the most egregious part, especially due to how you can instantly get value from their units and then swap them out for more instant value.
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Good thinking about small steps, even though we will still have present tech 2 to be superior to most other specs if we make our steps too small.
Another idea to make finesse a bit less oppressive: how about considering a deck like nightmare to be multicolored? That one extra gold early hand really is a huge advantage. But obviously that does nothing against decks like my tournament winning Deck [Finesse]/Feral/Present
Hence I would prefer my suggested maestro nerf, but still wanted to put this idea into the open.
I like that idea, but two probably isn’t enough. I would suggest to start with “first three cards” and then see where this takes us. I don’t see a reason for making this legendary. If you combine legendary with the suggested nerf, it changes nothing. And if you think about it being legendary as the only nerf, this usually only helps when the opponent has some backline building removal at their disposal. Hence I would prefer to stick to a different vector of nerfing this.
About haste removal: if we then step away from haste removal, it might be that burning legion will again be busted. But I wouldn’t mind stepping back from haste removal as it feels a bit clunky.
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I don’t know if finesse really needs major nerfs. Honestly I feel like they’re in a pretty good spot, because of the lack of card draw. It requires quite a few combo pieces to pop off.
If I was really pressed to nerf finesse… Maestro probably would be the spot, but I think I would make it a 2 gold reduction still so that only blademasters are not free, since that’s the real value of the card.
You’re absolutely right. If we agree on taking only a single small step with nerfing present, it is true that finesse does not need a big nerf. In this light I really like your proposal.
What are your thoughts on Garrison?
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So I think the difference between my proposed change to Garrison and the way Reteller works is that Reteller can only act twice per turn even if you have two copies in play and its ability technically triggers four times. Returning a card to play is inherently limited to one action per trigger but drawing cards is not.
This is why I think possibly just making Garrison Legendary is a good fix on its own. It is most egregious with two copies active and we shortcut that entirely with Legendary.
Be interested if this takes changes your opinion on either of these ideas?
That’s right I completely missed the point of difference to reteller, then obviously you raise good points here.
Tbh it still feels like risking to go too far at once if we add legendary on top of reducing the number of cards drawn off each Garrison. At the same time I think that just making it legendary but not nerfing it further is still not enough. Also I wouldn’t mind if someone invested 6 gold into two copies of it on the table that then this someone should benefit bigger from that.
In order to stick to Bryce’s credo we should probably start with a smaller nerf and see whether more is required afterwards.
So probably we should still allow for drawing three times per Garrison, don’t you think?
I think the haste nerf can then still be removed.
With this in mind I want to sum up the current suggestions:
Temporal Distortion: change cost to 3
Flagstone Garrison: change text to “The first three times each turn you play a unit from hand, draw a card”
Maestro: change text to "your virtuosos cost 2 less to pay and gain ‘exhaust: deal 2 damage to a building’ "
And in order to again focus on a minimal set of changes I also suggest to remove our cost reduction from General’s Hammer. Peace is good enough without buffing the only hardly ever played spell in this spec.
Thoughts?
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It makes me sad, as TD to 3 could often end up meaning a whole turn delay added to present popping off, but ye why not; altho as i type i think id rather start w nerfing the units rather than the combos but i also am chipping in v late.
Hyperion down 1 atk or 1hp, tric down 1 hp would be okay but still let u get the same amount of fun with just tighter constraints (gotta use a tric ping or NC to finish the tech building off with hype, or gotta avoid hitting that 4 hp blocker with hyperion or wont be able to flicker it)
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TD to 3 is a huge sledge hammer to present.
I’m suprised Hyperion to a 4/4 isn’t being suggest, as that is a large nerf to present.
Nerfing Tric’s health also achieves similar goals (but is generally only a problem later)
Present is weak when it can’t reuse units, so often preys on the opponent playing smaller units, so that tric/hyperion attack + flicker can happen. If present is a problem for you, would suggestion teching some high attack units (vigor adept etc). taking hyperion down 1hp gives more options for how to make sure it dies on the attack.
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The issue is definitely that it’s both incredibly card efficient and gold efficient. You can play down on cards quite aggressively and know you’ll just make it back up later with hyperion drawing you cards and tricycloid often going 2-for-1 and then temporal distortion allowing you to replace injured ones with fresh ones while going even on cards. Crazy value.
Either the stats get nerfed or the value gets nerfed. You could make td sacrifice the unit, but it loses some flavour and combo ability. Targeting the gold is cleaner and more effective.
Not to mention the value is all instant as well, which is quite rare in this game.
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I have a strong preference for nerf the stats instead of the gold. Reducing the stats does give you the lowered efficiency you’re looking for, and means that now you’re looking for doing many things a few turns in a row instead of one big combo turn.
And this is both #fair because there’d now be way more good counters (including a large number of maxbanded heroes that’d successfully trade w hyperion) and because present can totally run out of steam once TD runs out of things to fetch.
I think id even rather do -1/-1 and a 0/-1 to hype and tric before nerfing the fun with TD
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