I like that @thehug0naut
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Loses haste, or loses haste that turn?
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A good point to clarify. I think “loses haste this turn” is the sweet spot for the minimal nerf and minimising book keeping.
So the full text would be:
“Whenever you play a unit from hand, that unit loses Haste this turn and you draw a card”
My intent here is that Drakk Maxband would still work and you could still Now! or Bloodlust your haste back
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I like this, and think it resolves most issues. The main question I have is how it would interact with Nimble Fencer.
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Ahh. Good point. As I understand things, state based haste like Wandering Mimic (and presumably Fencers) won’t be prevented by a one time “loses haste this turn”
Maybe I’m in the minority but I did mean the intent as “Loses the ability TO GAIN HASTE until your next upkeep”, as in “Anything I play from Garrison should not be able to gain haste and loses haste if it has it already”.
Example:
Sharks, Kidnapping: Allowed, not units you’re playing from hand
Fencer, Other Virtuosos w/ Fencer out, Mimic, Bloodlust, Now!, Lobber, Crashbarrow, Glider, Sanitorium: Not Allowed if played from hand
It’s a pretty niche situation though and lobbers are the main thing you’re trying to target
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A slightly different aim than I had in mind @FrozenStorm but also a valid thing to want to achieve.
I think the wording you are looking for would be:
“Whenever you play a unit from hand, that unit loses Haste and cannot gain Haste until your next upkeep. Draw a card."
I believe that would allow all your allow list and prevent all your block list except Sanatorium, it’s worded as “put into play” so it never “plays” the summoned units and won’t trigger Garrison.
My preference would be to go with the lesser nerf for now and strengthen it later if we see we have a problem with Peace + Finesse, Present and/or Blood
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I think that’s fine as there are already nerfs to battle suits that have made Garrison “less nasty” and I think Lobbers are the primary issue. I could see Finesse getting bad w/ Maestro though (finesse is already becoming top-tier)
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That’s true, maybe we should not allow Maestro to reduce the cost of a virtuoso below 1 gold?
edit: or just make it maxband river like - let it reduce the costs of virtuosos by one gold
@FrozenStorm and @thehug0naut I think your thoughts are good. If further nerfes are required we could do it later.
I would not worry about fencer and garrison too much. I played it in my first tournament and it was not that strong. [Demon] Finesse Peace. OK, I was playing worse during that time and I think neutral starter would be better in that deck. But it is currently not in my list of top8 decks. The issue is the tech lab. You get it much later runnning. When it is running it is unstoppable. I played in that tourney all units in the deck in 1 round. But that is not happening before round 7-8 and too late against other top decks. The improved version of this one was then burning legion.
That does not mean Finesse needs no nerf. I beliefe the “Better Nightmare” is definetly too strong. But when we touch Finesse we should as well think about Present. These are the 2 strongest ones.
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It’s wild to think we’ve come so far around that we’re now considering neutral starter to be too strong rather than too weak.
Fruit Ninja is still trash though.
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Just sitting here, drinking tea, thinking about my turn, when I had a wild and crazy idea (my best ones).
Might of Leaf and Claw: What if we made it not a permanent threat? So it wasn’t so devastating against decks with no upgrade removal.
This makes the card a cool choice, where you can buff your current board or save it to buff future things. It also makes it more flexible, and less feast or famine, and can’t be activated instantly.
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First impression was: yes this suggestion is way better. Second impression is more like: well, I actually kind of like the tremendous buff MoLaC gives combined with this “dies during upkeep when the effect wears off”. Yes it is a tremendously good card, but even without the current nerf it was no auto win and it definitely is no auto win after the current nerf.
I can very well imagine situations where your current suggestion leads to an even bigger buff than what it is now and in some corner fringe cases the new version would even be better than the original MoLaC.
Notably it would combo with anything that can move +1/+1 runes, so Blooming Ancient could immediately take the runes it got from this and pass them on to whatever you want, potentially giving something +10/+10 or more in one turn… And while it’s impractical, if you somehow pulled that off with Doubling Barbarbarian the result would be pretty hilarious.
I think this is nearly better than the old MoLaC: it’s giving something on the second turn almost no matter what, and can just keep giving more over time forever (provided you’re attacking with things, but that shouldn’t be very hard to do). It’s certainly much better than the current nerfs. Having just played w/ the current nerfs, I actually think it’s in a really healthy place:
- +3/+3 is way more manageable for the opponent but still really strong for you playing it
- Tapping means it can’t break the game on the turn it hits the board
- That it wears off at upkeep means it’s much harder to just keep building a bigger and bigger board with it
If anything I think +4/+4 might be the sweet spot combined with the other two nerfs. Felt like I should have been able to close the game I was using it on, but +3/+3 meant I couldn’t quite slam base hard enough. Still hard for green to keep a board with it…
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Do we agree that the two nightmare versions need another nerf?
Are there any reasonable ideas out there how a good nerf for the two nightmare versions should look like? Quick and dirty I would suggest a change of maestro more in the flavor of maxband river:
Reduce the cost of virtuosos by 1
Instead of for free
But I’m not completely happy with that… Any better suggestions?
Difficult, as Dreamfire mentioned there are other strong ones. We would make Finesse weaker vs the other top fractions like Present, Peace, Blood Growth. And it is mainly this combination which makes it OP. Finesse in other combinations is just strong. If we are not careful, we soon have just Present in the tournaments.
2 Main issues are the guide fetch via Garth, and Maestro with hero card draw.
Not optimal nerfs which came to my mind are Guide to 6g (to avoid fetch) and Maestro to 4 (that you cannot use him as a cheap blocker any more.)
Or just reduce the maxband fetch ability to gold cost 4 or less. Black has no tech 2 unit for 5 gold, so we wouldn’t hinder any initial intended synergies.
Probably the increased gold cost suggestion for Maestro is still in order.
I’ll have to think more about these new proposals. I’d like to see Nightmare (either version) against other top decks (especially Miracle Grow, maybe Daymare) before piling up more nerfs.
Regarding the other changes (that were actually tested this tourny):
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Troq and his spells feel very playable, but I find Overpower underwhelming as a maxband ability. Not sure if Readiness would actually be more impactful, but it certainly doesn’t feel like a buff.
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I think MoLaC might still be over-nerfed. Since the buff goes away at your upkeep, all your guys die with the normal amount of damage (just a little bit later). So your patrol is harder to break through, but it doesn’t help you build up your board. Not sure how I’d change it though.
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I’m in, would prefer to play Moby’s version.