Seconding Neko, hug0naut and DF here, I think the precedent is there for “give a XYZ or nonABC” in targeting being understood to mean it can’t target that thing. If we think the wording can be improved to be more explicit, though, I’d recommend
Cannot target illusions. Give a unit -1/-1 until end of turn.
Simple enough, less elegant but more explicit.
I actually wonder if that single change to Black vs Blue makes the matchup 7-3 or even closer, I’m up to playtest that or that + the already errata’d Black changes.
As for Troq… poor Troq. What if the Boot could target tech 3 for a discard? Maybe you had to boost X to increase the tech level of what you’re destroying?
I wondered the same thing, I suspect Vandy would still need to lose meta fetching but that might be all that’s needed. I’d be up for playtesting the blue side.
Boost is an interesting idea for Troq spells, it fits with his giant growth stuff from yomi quite well. Not sure what the right boost cost would be but say something like:
The Boot - Spell - 3g
Destroy a tech 0 or tech I unit.
If you boosted 2g, destroy a tech II unit instead.
Would be 5g to get rid of any Tech II. That’s essentially the same as a skeleton sacrifice Doom Grasp only it can’t kill heroes.
As an aside, my funnest version of the Boot is still the “to spaaaace” version my brother suggested:
The Boot - Spell - 3g
Trash a tech 0 or tech I unit.
I know it would probably almost certainly break the balance of Bashing vs Finesse but it’s super fun to fire units into orbit.
I don’t actually think the errata we’ve come up with is all that clunky. It’s definitely helping a lot w/ Blue vs Black which was a total mess of a matchup without it, and having DP and Det at 1g cost feels like it’s going to make for a pretty interesting matchup. Black still has tons of targeting with Disease and actually makes Disease feel like the strong spec in the color so far (Crypt Crawler’s targeting is MORE than suitable as a replacement for how to deal w/ Aven and Roc, and Sickness for Tiger / Hound / Flagbearer / Reteller).
I second all the nerfs, as I think they are necessary.
About the buffs I’m not having a strong opinion, but I would be fine testing these out
A short clarification question about MoLaC: the exhaustion is required for a then permanent effect, right? It’s not meant as a buff for a single turn and it cannot be applied more than once, right?
Good to call out needing more clarity, that is ambiguous. Yes the intent is “it works like it did before, just smaller buff and takes at least one turn”. Maybe
?
I still don’t love the wording, open to ideas here
I’m not sure if all of that is necessary, but none of it looks unreasonable, except that losing haste seems overly punishing to ephemeral units and Chameleon Lizzo.
I think nerfs are pretty good for a next round. The top decks are still very strong, but it should be possible to beat them now more frequently.
Regarding buffs is much more required in my opinion, but let’s go in small steps. I would suggest Troq to band at 3 and 6. With 7 he is still too weak and you would always find a better hero even considering that he is neutral. With 3 & 6 he might work in some niche decks. I would test it and take him.
I’m up for playing a tournament with these changes. I agree we do need a bit more clarity though.
Vandy maxband: Does it not targeting mean that the opponent now can/must trigger it on their turn?
MoLaC: Once upon a time I proposed something like this: → If there are at least 5 growth runes on this, your heroes and units get +3/+3 until your next upkeep.
The Boot: If the idea is to mirror Doom Grasp, it should be: Discard a card. If you do, destroy a tech 0, I or II unit. Or do we want it to be like Martial Mastery, where you can circumvent the discard?
Yes, this is the test @thehug0naut and I are doing, have it trigger on opponent’s turn too. Really heightens the “deal with the devil” flavor for her I think ^ _ ^
I like that one best, make you re-tap it each time
I like the martial mastery angle, I’d vote going with that
This is really only a problem for Peace T2 + Tech Lab Anarchy yea? I think that’s fine, you run the risk if you try to go Garrison
Bit shruggy shoulders at this one I think w/ the other buffs he’s worth considering at 7 still but I’d be fine trying 6 too
Peace/Blood also with 'barrows and Gliders. Come to think of it, there are a lot of other cases where players might want to invest in haste that aren’t broken in combination with Flagstone Garrison that this proposed nerf would foreclose, e.g. paying to maxband Drakk to haste one powerful unit to take out a powerful threat after the opponent pummels you with everything they have. I mean, that’s one unit per turn that has to come before any card draws gained from Garrisons, and it’s expensive. I think some level of incompatibility is warranted here, but I feel like this goes way overboard, so I’d like to find a way to preserve the spirit of the nerf (to prevent dumping a bunch of cheap, hasty units, having them suicide attack, triggering a reshuffle, and then playing them and having them suicide attack again in the same turn) without making its effects so far-reaching and overly restrictive.
How about this instead? Flagstone Garrison: “Haste. Exhaust: Until end of turn, whenever you play a unit from hand, that unit loses haste and cannot gain haste, and you draw a card.” This way, if a player happens to draw ephemeral units naturally or via some other source of card draw, they could play them as intended if they opt out of getting Garrison draws from them, but once they opt into drawing cards for playing units, they’d be locking themselves out of attacking with any units they might happen to draw and play until their next turn. This would make these spec combos awkward but doable if the player weighs their options and adapts to their opponent’s plays, but would prevent just dumping their entire deck and steamrolling their opponent each turn.
Just realized you dropped some of the old nerfs like Dp, bs and birds. Sure? Without those nerfs troq has to wait, it opens the doors for some other decks I wanted to play.
How about we just get rid of low tech haste with the Garrison nerf, that way it’s very specifically aiming at Burning Legion and other cheap easy haste but not tech lab combos:
Flagstone Garrison: Whenever you play a unit from your hand, draw a card. If that unit is Tech 0 or I, it also loses Haste.
I think all the suggestions work and are fine too nerf burning legion. Would not spend too much time on that. Tech2 2 haste with garrison is too weak against other top strategies so will anyway not play a major role in the tournaments. And the fun games are played without the balance patch.
Ok looked a bit more into Troq, so here is a summary. The target in my opinion should be, that you can somehow create with him a deck that has a chance against the current best decks, for example (which are nerfed but still in the top 5): Nighmare, Burning Legion, Miracle Growth… Just put him in a deck, which can win against mono blue, would not be enough. (Nothing against mono blue, just an example I think you know what I mean).
I like his new midband and maxband skills, but they are defenetly not the the best ones. I think they are comparable with other combat heroes and can be used in some situations very well. So the question for me was, is there any reason to prefer Troq before Vandy or Cala:
Spells: He loses defenitly against Cala and Vandy. His spells can only be used in rare situations. The Boot for examply only against very strong tech2 units, which are not that often played. (you don’t want to do a bad trade in a highly competetive matchup)
Ulti: Troq’s is not bad I think, but Cala and Vandy have top Ulti spells. So he loses.
Tech 1: Definetly loses against Cala, Vandy is a bit special.
Tech 2: Troq’s tech 2 is unplayable. Cala and Vandy work in some combinations very well.
What I would do:
Tech 2 is too complicated to balance in a first step. For me it would be OK just to know that I have only 2 Tech2 options in the Deck.
Spells: You already improved a bit, I would not do much more here either. In rare situations you can use them.
Tech 1: Give the Ozelot anti air. Neutral starter + tech 1 just don’t have anti air, because in a matchup against each other they don’t need it. This should be corrected and it fits to the card. Then Troq has at least 1 unit which is playable and as strong as Hauntress
Troq himself: His new skills fit to him, I just would give him the same mid/max like Cala and Vandy 3/5. Although he is still much worse regarding spells and tech2 he can be interesing if you want a bulky hero, don’t play black or green and want to stay in mono color.
, Discard a card → Fetch any non-ultimate Demonology spell from your codex, reveal it, then put it in your hand.”
I think w/ the other buffs he’s worth considering at 7 still but I’d be fine trying 6 too