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Yomi-O's now with 200% more fireballs (v3 wishlist)


#809

-I’m a fan of buffing Gloria’s Remedy like this. Seems pretty consensus.

-Does Chillbane as you have it worded here prevent Hex of Murkwood at End of Turn? I agree that the Chains of Ice - Crash Bomb interaction is feel-bad but I only think it’s worth changing the wording if we’re sure it doesn’t add any confusing interactions or make the ability too wordy. After all, this is intended to change just one interaction in one mu.

-Dreadlands Portal -> 25 damage is serviceable but I’m going to continue to push for giving it KD. It is a “Portal” after all so it makes a lot of flavor sense for it to provide Gwen with advantage time the next turn. Giving it KD also ensures Gwen’s endgame won’t consist of dodge/super throw mixup over and over again, since she’s much more likely to try a mixup normal / dodge instead if she gets KD, which feels much more rushdowny. After it gets KD, if we test and find it’s still weak, I could see 24 damage + KD working fine.

I think I saw someone questioning how useful KD was for Gwen. Let me assure you that Gwen can be devastating vs. a KD’d opponent - she has x.0 normals and an anti-block innate ability. I feel like people are really forgetting how good x.0 normals are. Regarding reversals, of course they’re good against Gwen as they should be against a rushdown char, but the opponent isn’t going to have infinite reversals. The characters that do have them struggle in other ways to compensate (like Jaina/Mene).

~~

Rook 9-throw -> 9-attack. Dear god yes I need this in my life, this should be consensus. You’re brilliant @mysticjuicer. And by the way, I love you just as much no matter which character you play (yes, even the bullshit beast himself). My love is not conditional on you playing Rook like it seems to be for some of these folks :stuck_out_tongue:

~~

I really want to like this Filibuster idea since it helps vs. Geiger, and I think it’s worth considering/testing for that reason alone, but let me voice my concerns: it seems clunky as hell any way I look at it. For one, giving Quince another ability makes him have the most abilities of any char in the game (tied with Val and Troq, but Troq is losing J ability and Val’s abilities are all simple and short). For another, Quince’s Flagstone Tax already indirectly allows him to discourage the opponent from attacking him while he’s KD in a way that feels just meaningful enough in most mus while still leaving KD as a built-in weakness. Unfortunately, it just happens that Geiger and Zane have extremely crazy things on KD vs. him that Tax isn’t enough to offset.

I do think this Filibuster idea is worth testing, but I’m not crazy about it. Then again, you’ve also shaken my confidence that 1.0 AA is a good change. You mentioned being concerned about 1.0 AA triggering Positive Spin too easily, what if it dealt no block damage like Lum’s Q? Just an idea. Honestly, I’m now leaning toward not touching Quince at all and just letting Zane/Geiger nerfs make his life a bit easier.


#810

Maybe this wording would be better:

J* Chillbane [During Combat]
When you hit with Chains of Ice, freeze the opponent (they skip all decisions they would make the rest of the turn and cannot trigger any abilities this combat). Next turn, their attacks and throws are 2 speed slower.

Crash Bomb would be the the only move in the game affected by the added text, unless BBB decides to Overdrive (and then Long Arm) on a turn he’s slowed down by J* (or other slow effect in 2v2 I presume), but this seems like probably an unlikely play? (I don’t know I don’t play BBB)

Me neither tbh, the cost seems super misaligned from the power of the mix-up defense. How about if the mix-up defense was speed gated?

4* Filibuster [During Combat]
Discard this block to prevent block damage and beat mix-up normals faster than 3.0 speed.

This way it specifically gives him an option for meaty/time spiral defense but leaves everyone else* largely unnaffected. It also means most of the time he can just use it as a normal block, but he has to dump it when he needs the ability. I’d say he should still draw a replacement card from blocking, because that’s good flavour for a canonical stalling tactic.

* Note: This move also prevents (reworked) BBB setting range with his normals and beats both mix-up 3 and Q at range so we’d potentially need to watch that match-up. I have no idea how it plays right now.


#811

One thing I’d just like to remind everyone of is that every change/new ability should be made with new player accessibility in mind. I know that balancing should be for high level play, but we should try not to make the game any more impenetrable than it already is.

So any time we’re adding or modifying abiltiies, we should aim to make it so clear it doesn’t need an FAQ, and even if it does, it’s not a long one.


#812

Agreed, seems very consensus at this point. Personally, I can’t recall anyone saying it was a bad idea.

This looks way better. Much more targeted in what it can affect, and it reads better too (the word order on the previous take was something I’d planned to fix as soon as possible).

I like this idea too; it’s definitely worth testing at the very least.

Yeah, it’s probably not that good an idea. I doubt it’s all that useful for him for the cost, and you’re right that it’s clunky and giving him yet another ability when his existing ones are complicated enough that players who haven’t seen him before can have a hard time parsing them mid-game (as evidenced by my friend getting a slight headache and generally being confused when I randomed into Quince during a casual set last night).

I would agree with you on this, but he had a certain energy and enthusiasm before he became known to some as mystictraitor that I’d love to see again, especially now that he’s become a better player. Can you imagine a mysticjuicer who gets to play the character he truly loves and has the knowledge and skill of mystictraitor? :wink:


#813

Just as a quick aside: I wonder how much of my skill as mystictraitor comes down to how much easier it is to play Troq. I would be surprised if my success rate with current Rook would be all that much higher than what it was when I played him, to be honest.


#814

True, I wouldn’t expect that much improvement if you tried playing 2nd Edition Rook again (though maybe he can still be useful as a counterpick at the end of a set sometimes, idk). But it looks like just a few tweaks to his special blocks and giving him a 9-attack would make him good enough to be worth using over Troq at least some of the time, right? Besides, I do think you’ve improved a lot since you started doing Yomi commentary, even if that improvement would be hard to see when playing low-tier characters.

Look, I just want you to play Rook more, OK?! :laughing:


#815

You did improve along your career, even playing rook, and you’ve improved further playing Troq. Check your elo, you’ll see.


#816

How dare you bring facts into this, you monster. :heart:

edit: I wrote out a bunch of other stuff, but it’s off-topic, and stuff I’ve already said about Rook and what tier he’s in, and what kind of player I am, the intersection of those things, etc etc. Maybe another time in another thread, or in a video or something.


#817

I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and come up with an idea for a Jaina “overhaul” that I quite like. It keeps a lot of her deck the same, while adressing the issues we’ve discussed in this thread with her gameplan, cards (especially J) and abilities. It hasn’t been playtested, so it’s obviously a starting point at best, but I’m curious to hear what people think.

As previously discussed, the goal was to make her a hybrid of a zoner/footsies character like Grave, and a rushdown character - her innate was meant to achieve this by giving her a strong reward and card flow for going on the offensive, while simultaneously rewarding the opponent for reading her right. Meanwhile her abilities are intended to ensure the opponent can’t be safe just by turtling up -and to provide the distorted symmetry with Grave that I’m so fond of.

Jaina Stormborne
Phoenix Archer

Summary

90 HP
5 CP

Normal throws: 2 CP, x.6 speed, 7 damage & KD
Normal attacks: 1 CP, x.6 speed, x damage, red suits inflict x-1 block damage

Innate:

Unstable Power: When you deal damage or block damage with an attack, the next turn if you combat-reveal an attack and hit your opponent with it, search your deck or discard pile for a red face card. If you combat-reveal an attack and do not hit your opponent with it, take 5 damage.

Card ranks:

2: A/D
3: A/D
4: A/D
5: A/D
6: A/B
*7: B/T
8: B/T
9: B/Knee Bash, Throw, +Any, +Any, 8.6 speed, 7+5+5 damage, Can’t Combo
*10: B/T

J: * Charged Shot, Attack, 5.0 speed, 9 (8) damage, 2 CP starter
Flame Arrow, Attack, 2.4 speed, 7 (6) damage, 1 CP ender

Q: Dragonheart, Attack, +any, 0.2 speed, 9+5 (2) damage, 3 CP ender
K: Crossfire Kick, Attack, +K+K+K, 6+7+7+7 (3) damage, 2 CP linker
A:
A Red Dragon, Attack, +A+A+A, 0.8 speed, 10+9(2) damage, Can’t Combo
AA Letter J, Attack, 0.2 speed, 18(4) damage, 2 cp Ender

*7: Smoldering Embers -[Combat Reveal] If the opponent dodges while this card is in your discard pile, they take two damage. You can’t power up with this card. (It’s too hot.)

*10: Burning Vigor - [Draw] Discard this card and take 5 damage to draw 3 cards.

*J: Full Charge [During Combat] Charged Shot beats normal blocks.


#818

This Jaina might need lower HP, but I think it’s an interesting build!


#819

Innate is cool. Charged Shot is definitely too fast with that innate. If it beats Normal Blocks, perhaps Can’t Combo?

10 is kinda weird, but makes her more rushdown.


#820

I think settling on an innate and making sure Flame Arrow is central to her strategy is the most important thing for Jaina, then the rest can kinda grow from that. I like some of your innate idea. Here’s a modified version that I think is interesting:

Burning Vigor:
When you win combat with an attack, draw a card and you may followup with Flame Arrow as if it were a 0 CP Linker. Next turn, search your deck or discard pile for a Jack if you combat-reveal an attack or take 5 damage if you don’t.

Combine this with having Smoldering Embers (the version where it returns to hand when triggered) on Jack and I think it would make for a pretty interesting engine that centers on Flame Arrow. As the game progresses, she amasses more arrows and thus becomes more threatening. Flavor-wise, the idea is that Jaina’s arrows are raining down from the sky and she’s using them to extend her combos further than she normally could like in FSFG.


#821

On reflection you’re absolutely right Charged Shot needs to be slower, but I don’t think it should be Can’t Combo as well.

Which speed do you think is appropriate? (For purposes of balancing Jaina this might not be the most productive thing to discuss, but I’m interested to learn more about character design.)

Speed suggestions

7.0, like Pilebunker? Slower than most things but beats big slow normals?
7.2, basically the same but loses clean to Pilebunker? (and is 3 times the speed of fast J, which makes sense in flavor.)
8.6 like in v1, loses to everything but the biggest duffs?
11.0, flat-out loses to attacks? (I’m not a fan of this but I include it because I might have underestimated how radical a block-beating attack is. And it is a “charged” attack, so it makes sense that it can be duffed by just about anything…)

10* might be a little wonky, it was the last ability I added. It’s in there because I felt like she needs a way to top up her hand to keep her mix-ups threatening, since she doesn’t have Grave’s super threat, Setsuki’s vortex or Valerie’s rapid cycling.


#822

I really like idea of her innate being an aggressive mirror of Knowing the Opponent. Though worded as above someone could interpret it as “every combat reveal she takes 5 damage if she reveals an attack and doesn’t win”. I’m assuming you only mean it to apply on Burning Vigour turns? If so I’d recommend this (based on the wording of KtO)

Burning Vigour
When you deal damage or block damage with an attack, draw a card. If you combat-reveal an attack next turn but don’t hit the opponent, take 5 damage. If you combat-reveal an attack next turn and do hit the opponent, search your deck or discard pile for a red face card. (Shuffle your deck if you searched it.)

Note the “draw a card” addition is there so an action takes place when the ability is triggered. This is important for helping players keep track of triggered effects in the tabletop game. Happily it also gives her extra cards which is vital for a rushown-style play (meaning 10* doesn’t have to be a straight up “draw cards” ability). It also gives her the same minimum hand size payoff that Grave gets from KtO, only upfront and with the potential for taking damage next turn. It might be too strong with the trigger being damage or block damage though. If that’s the case shifting the trigger to “winning combat with an attack” might be better.


I really like what you’re trying to do with the 0cp fast J, but I think late game she needs to be able to fetch her Qs aswell. So maybe she also keeps Burning Desperation but it just changes the innate to fetching a face card? How about we combine both yours and @Arthurwynne’s ideas into:

Burning Vigour
When you win combat with an attack, draw a card and your Flame Arrows become 0cp Linkers this combat. If you combat-reveal an attack next turn but don’t hit the opponent, take 5 damage. If you combat-reveal an attack and do hit the opponent, search your deck or discard pile for a Jack. (Shuffle your deck if you searched it.)

Burning Desperation
If you have 35 life or less, you may also search for Kings and Queens in addition to Jacks.

This might be too strong as is, but I really like the idea of her drawing Queens on low life.


#823

Yes, I do. I’m glad you liked it! And thanks for the suggestion. Yomi wording is challenging sometimes because it uses very “natural”, casual language, but with precise technical meanings.


#824

I’m not sure that’s a good enough reason to give Jaina double normal draw. You can accomplish the same idea just by setting the attack card on top of the character portrait or replacing this with some kind of “reveal an attack card to your opponent,” further mirroring Grave’s innate.


#825

Does “dealing damage with an attack” also cover comboing into one?


#826

Yes, I’m fairly sure it does. At the very least, it does if Lum’s Roll the Dice can be triggered by dodging into an attack.

Roll the Dice
At the end of combat, if you dealt damage or block damage with an attack this turn, you may…


#827

It does. I spesifically checked this because I initially wanted to write the innate so she could also dodge into triggering it, but not throw. But there’s no way to do it without getting really inelegant and clunky (And the way it ended up is probably better design anyway.) And yes, not having the innate give a draw was very deliberate.


#828

I am strongly against there being more attacks in the game that beat blocks. Especially if they’re speed 5.0 and can lead into a very realistic 27 damage. The fact that this Janina has a high damage block crusher and then much faster high damage combos is just going to wreck grapplers and slower based characters. Imo, Onimaru is the only character that does attacks beat blocks correctly. I’d want to throw Geiger J, Q, AA, Grave J, Val K, and BBBs 2, 3, 4, 6 (Relentless Strikes is okay) in the trash. The game doesn’t need more attacks beat blocks.