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Black vs Blue: FrozenStorm & EricF experiment


#1

Per my ongoing experiments with Black and Blue, @EricF has agreed to try a new Blue first cycle opening to see how it fares. Thanks very much to him, I hope this yields some better results for the blue player!

I’m going to post the first 5 “turns” (P1 T1, 2 & 3 and P2 T1 & 2) below, and we’re going to play out from that point (perhaps multiple times) to see if we can find a world in which Blue isn’t so disadvantaged.

It’s “cheating” a little bit to fix the draws and such, but I think I have enough experience in this matchup to say there are a LOT of wrong things Blue can do / get for draws, so focusing on “what it takes for Blue to win consistently” I think is a better way for us to work backwards to find it (certainly just “play games straight up” has gone VERY poorly for Blue thus far!)


Black P1 T1

4 Gold
Vandy (2)
Jav (1)
Haunt (1)
Worker (0)

Empty Patrol

Workers

Skeletal Archery


Blue P2 T1

5 Gold
Inspector (4)
Worker (3)

Float 3

Scav: BI (1/1)

Workers

TBD by EricF


Black P1 T2

5 Gold

Techs

Dark Pact, Bone Collector

Jav chucks BI down
Vandy and Haunt hit base to 17
Heros Hall (4)
Worker (3)
Tech 1 (2)

Float 1

Empty Patrol

Workers

Summon Skeletons, Skeletal Archery


Blue P2 T2

Techs

TBD by EricF

6 Gold + 3 Float + 1Scavenger
TD (9)
Tech 1 (8)
Worker (7)

Float 7

Techn: TD (1/1)

Workers

TBD by EricF


Black P1 T3

6 Gold + 1 float

Techs

Shadow Blade, Hooded Executioner
Dark Pact, Bone Collector

Hand (drawn fairly, first two turns didn't really matter other than what I workered)

Sacrifice the Weak
Jandra, the Negator
Thieving Imp
Graveyard
Poisonblade Rogue

Haunt hits your tech 1 to 4hp
Garth (5)
Thieving Imp, dc 1 of 5 (2)
Make a Skeleton (1)
Worker (0)

Workers

Summon Skeletons, Skeletal Archery, Poisonblade Rogue

SQL Skele

Scav Imp

Backline
Vandy (2/3 lvl 1)
Garth (1/3 lvl 1)
Jav (1/1)
Haunt (1/1)

Base 20
Tech1 5

Hand 5
Deck 3
DC 0

Thoughts

A lot he could be planning, I suspect it will be unit heavy though so I’m going to go with try to break big in the later stages, not take a huge swing right here but instead build a board that is prepared to swing strong.

Next Hand

Bone Collector
Dark Pact
Deteriorate
Shadow Blade
Jandra, the Negator


I’d suggest we play from this line until @EricF wins, then when he does I’ll replay my turn 3 to see if I’m the one screwing up playing into this (admittedly unorthodox) 13 Gold start of turn 3 from EricF

I honestly have no idea if I should be breaking his tech 1 or not here, I suspect perhaps had I drawn slightly different I should have, but I want to go with this line for now based on how things have shaken out.

GL HF @EricF I have faith that if anyone can find the winning play it’s you!


Blue vs Black box
IsotopeX (Red) vs VaeVictus (Purple)
Mono Blue vs P1 mono black
#2

Player 2, Turn 3 (plan to get fast Tech III):
Hand: 4
Deck: 4
Discard: 1

7 gold (14)
Worker (13)
Tech II Truth (9)
Tower (6)
Scribe (4)
Bigby (2)
Traffic Director pokes your Hero’s Hall for 1 damage
Bluecoat Musketeer (0)
Discard 2, Draw 3, rs, Draw 1.

SQL - Scribe (1/3 +1)
Scavenger - Bluecoat Musketeer (1/2)
Tech - L1 Bigby (2/3)

Traffic Director (1/1)

Base - 17
Tech I - 4
Tech II - 5
Spec: Truth
Tower - 4

8 workers, 0 gold
Hand: 4
Deck: 4
Discard: 0


#3

I’m excited to see how this goes!

Also: Blue would be in really excellent shape at this point if it had access to Earthquake!


#4

Maybe at least put in spoilers what you’re going to try, so I’m not tempted to target that specifically (unless you’re messing with me, in which case bravo ^_^)

In fairness though, perhaps going tech 2 truth might have tipped me off just in general that “Gryphon rush” is the plan XD


Black P1 T4

7 Gold

Techs

Cursed Ghoul, Metamorphosis
Shadow Blade, Hooded Executioner
Dark Pact, Bone Collector

Hand

Bone Collector
Dark Pact
Deteriorate
Shadow Blade
Jandra, the Negator
DP: Hooded Exec + Graveyard

Dark Pact, Base to 18
Deteriorate Scribe, Shadow Blade to kill him, discard #3 of 4 (4)
Skeleton pokes Musketeer for 1 damage
Vandy midband, kills Bigby and Musketeer, she maxbands and just buffs Imp (2)
Imp breaks your tower, your base to 16
Garth, jav haunt hit your tech 2 to 2hp
Make a Skeleton (1)
Worker (0)

Dc 3, Draw 1 rs Draw 4

Workers

Graveyard, Summon Skeletons, Skeletal Archery, Poisonblade Rogue

Scav Skeleton

Backline
Vandy (4/5 lvl 5)
Garth (1/3 lvl 1)
Jav (1/1)
Haunt (1/1)
Imp (4/3 doomed)

Base 18
Tech1 5
Hero’s Hall 3

Hand 5
Deck 4
DC 0

8 Workers
0 Gold

Thoughts

This gives me a guaranteed shutdown of his tech 2 next turn (unless he arrests skeleton, which is expensive enough that I probably kill tech 2 anyway), and a turn 5 tech 2 down keeps him off tech 3 construction.

EDIT Okay no guaranteed tech 2 shutdown now, but I still think this is the right play. He’s now down a card and a gold from previous position, and I’m just down 1 skeleton and 1 damage on tech 2. I think I’ll still blow him up. I got to worker Graveyard instead of Jandra though, which is better for my re-draw.

Teching a Meta so he has to respect it from hand, and a Cursed Ghoul to have in the deck for efficient illusion popping. I’m 50% to draw either one individually, so could be a good split could be bad, but I’m also 50% for dark pact or deteriorate individually, good odds for a 3/3 2-drop, so if he opts for Free Speech I should be pretty safe to just tech up and continue Meta threat.

Ok so next hand was REALLY bad for potential Free Speech + Roc / Aven, all spells lol… but I still should be okay. He’d need Roc + Macciatus + Free Speech to threaten a Vandy kill turn 5, and that isn’t super likely. More likely is Reteller, and that’s manageable. Yea honestly if he goes flier + Free Speech, I can just sell out attacking while breaking tech 2, and force a choice for him between breaking my tech 2, killing vandy, or killing a Garth that’s getting free levels.

EDIT Yea actually worse for Free Speech now

That’s what’s SO HARD about this matchup: Meta is so threatening that Blue has to walk a really tight line of breaking the right things at just the right moments just to be “at parity” for playing a tech 2 / tech 3 centered game. And while Tech 2 / 3 is the weakest thing about Black, it isn’t so bad that it can’t build that up while also keeping a lot of threat down from its tech 1 / 2

Next Hand

Sacrifice the Weak
Shadow Blade
Cursed Ghoul
Deteriorate
Metamorphosis



#5

Yeah, I was thinking about your potential plays overnight, and concluded that I wasn’t going to be in a good position after that.

I’m going to retroactively edit the turn to have an extra patroller (to better leverage the Tower), and see if that reduces your attack power sufficiently.

See edited turn above.


#6

@FrozenStorm did you possibly have another tech plan than Cursed Ghoul at some point? Maybe need to edit and fix the tech section of P1T4?


#7

Yes, initially I thought Gorgon was better but as I worked it out I thought better of it: a 4-cost that comes with permanent deteriorate is much better for that position

@EricF ok I will reflect on the changes and post a new turn 4, re-teching and re-drawing from DP (if I decide to use it) / Next Hand.


#8

@EricF play on, I re-rolled the discard, re-drew the Dark Pact (actually wasn’t super consequential), and re-drew my next hand (got worse, crap). Play-wise, had to give up a skeleton (1 gold and no card) and 1 damage on your tech 2 (that might actually be a big difference-maker) to get an extra card and gold out of you, I think definitely better for you but no worries, play on!


#9

Player 2, Turn 4 (plan to get fast Tech III):
Hand: 5
Deck: 3
Discard: 2

8 gold (9)
Worker (8)
Quince (6)
Free Speech (4)
Spectral Tiger (1)
Discard 2, Draw 3, rs, Draw 1. Float 1 gold

Free Speech in effect
SQL - Spectral Tiger (5/5 +1)
Scavenger - Traffic Director (1/1)
Tech - Mirror (0/1)

L1 Quince (1/3)

Base - 15
Tech I - 4
Tech II - 2
Spec: Truth

9 workers, 1 gold
Hand: 4
Deck: 6
Discard: 0


#10

Drawing 4/8 and I miss all 3 units I can play… pretty harsh draw, might edge things out for ya here! Not getting that 4th damage to tech 2 also hurts a lot, that mulligan on turn 3 definitely worked out better.


Black P1 T5

8 Gold

Techs

Cursed Crow, Sickness
Cursed Ghoul, Metamorphosis
Shadow Blade, Hooded Executioner
Dark Pact, Bone Collector

Hand

Sacrifice the Weak
Shadow Blade
Cursed Ghoul
Deteriorate
Metamorphosis

Haunt kills your mirror, you get a card
Tech 2 Disease (4)
Worker (3)

Dc 4, Draw 4 rs Draw 1

Workers

Sacrifice the Weak, Graveyard, Summon Skeletons, Skeletal Archery, Poisonblade Rogue

SQL Skeleton

Scav Jav
Techn Garth

Backline
Vandy (4/5 lvl 5)
Haunt (1/1)

Base 18
Tech1 5
Tech2 5 DISEASE
Hero’s Hall 3

Hand 5
Deck 4
DC 0

9 Workers
3 Gold

Thoughts

Mega rough draw, he has the Free Speech as expected but the Tiger is the perfect companion, particularly against my draw of ALL MY GD SPELLS…!

I’m going to have to give up Garth to protect Vandy, and worker Sac The Weak or Shadow Blade (Sac the Weak not as likely to hit high value, Exec replaces it ok in the deck)… AND give him a card to kill Mirror (can’t really let him pay 4 gold for a second readied tiger, it would jeopardize too much)… very shitty. If he has Arrest it’ll certainly make matters worse.

Float a bunch of gold and hope to break through next turn, we shall see though! At least if he techs up it’s likely I can break through.

Well a hit on Sickness is about as good as I could hope for next turn, should help wipe an illusion patrol (provided he doesn’t just tech up and free speech)

Next Hand

Hooded Executioner
Bone Collector
Jandra, the Negator
Dark Pact
Sickness



#11

Go ahead and swap in one of those units, rather than just float 3 gold. I’m already cheating enough, and we already know that blue can beat black when black gets a horrible draw.

Having the Tech II survive is indeed critical, though!


#12

Regardless of what you have, I have no attacks to make, so…
Player 2, Turn 5:
Hand: 5
Deck: 5
Discard: 0

9 gold (10)
Worker (9)
Tech III (4)
Free Speech (2)
Bigsby (0)
Stash 1, Discard 2, Draw 4

Free Speech in effect
SQL - L1 Bigsby (2/3 +1)
Scavenger - Traffic Director (1/1)
Tech - L1 Quince (1/3)
Lookout - Spectral Tiger (5/5)

Base - 15
Tech I - 4
Tech II - 2
Tech III - 5
Spec: Truth

10 workers, 0 gold
Hand: 5
Deck: 1
Discard: 5


#13

Well I think regardless of what it was then, this may end poorly for me lol!

Perhaps I misunderstood, but what do you mean by this? Are you fixing your draws post turn 3, hitting long odds to space these free speech(es?) perfectly, or just that good at teching? (I’d believe all of those. In fact knowing you, the Liberty Gryphons are probably in hand not teched last turn, so I gotta kill that tech 3…)

I rolled random for the unit and spell to swap (because seriously, it was 7% I missed all three…), so let’s pretend I was able to land Bone Collector last turn then, and had one of my spells in this hand (not that it matters since I’m still silenced! Ha!)


Black P1 T5

9 Gold + 1 float

Techs

Death and Decay x2
Cursed Crow, Sickness
Cursed Ghoul, Metamorphosis
Shadow Blade, Hooded Executioner
Dark Pact, Bone Collector

Hand

Hooded Executioner
Metamorphosis (rolled 2 of 3 on units, so took #2 here (BC) out, and rolled 1 of 3 and meta was 1st in my deck list on the spreadsheet)
Jandra, the Negator
Dark Pact
Sickness

Haunt trades with Director, you get a gold
Hooded Executioner + Boost, Siegfried makes him disappear (5)
Orpal (3)
Vandy kills Bigby, Garth to level 3
Bone Collector kills Quince, you get a card, I get a skeleton, Garth to level 5
Maxband Garth (no bonus, le sigh) (1)
Garth, jav and skele break your tech 3, your base to 13
Worker (0)

Dc 3, Draw 5

Workers

Metamorphosis, Sacrifice the Weak, Graveyard, Summon Skeletons, Skeletal Archery, Poisonblade Rogue

Backline

Vandy (4/3 lvl 5)
Orpal (1/3 lvl 1)
Garth (3/4 lvl 7)
Jav (1/1)
Skele (1/1)
Skele (1/1)
Bone Collector (3/2)
Hooded Executioner (3/3)

Base 18
Tech1 5
Tech2 5 DISEASE
Hero’s Hall 3

Hand 5
Deck 0
DC 5

10 Workers

Thoughts

Okay with Either Bone Collector OR Jandra having been in last hand (I mean that was 22% I whiffed both of them, harsh), and there was a good chance Ghoul OR HE was in this hand (and either fill this role), it looks like an easy win. No attackers for him and I completely own the board, drawing into all kinds of targeting. I can fetch Meta and pop two illusions, and I’ll have 2 ready demon heroes so evern if I can’t break patrol I can still re-kill tech 3 fairly indefinitely

Next Hand

Deteriorate
Cursed Crow
Thieving Imp
Shadow Blade
Cursed Ghoul



#14

I’ve been taking “average” draws, just to see how things play out.

Time to see if I can recover here:
P2, turn 6
Hand: 6
Deck: 0
Discard: 7

Tech nothing
10 gold (11)
Re-build Tech III
Scribe, rs and draw 1 (9)
Tower (6)
Onimaru (4)
Building inspector (3)
Worker (2)
Bluecoat Musketeer (0)
Discard 3, draw 5

SQL - Onimaru (2/3 + 1)
Elite - Scribe (2/3)
Scavenger - Building Inspector (1/1)
Tech - Musketeer (1/2)

Base - 13
Tech I - 4
Tech II - 2
Tech III - 5
Spec: Truth
Tower - 4

11 workers, 0 gold
Hand: 5
Deck: 1
Discard: 3

I might still be just dead.


#15

Yeah I mean just fetching meta and casting shadow blade on Oni after a skeleton poke, I can shred that patrol and kill tech 2, 3 and tower. Might have lethal with deteriorate, right? I’d have bc + orpal meta + Garth meta… No, one shy.

So yeah I have all three heroes meta, I’m drawing into double death and decay, and I have a double tech and tower kill, your base to 7. That probably is still game?


#16

Looks like!

Rewinding back to turn 3, I could try to present a better defense of my Tower:

Player 2, Turn 3:
7 gold (14)
Worker (13)
Tower (10)
Quince (8)
Free Speech (6)
Tech II Truth (2)
Bluecoat Musketeer (0)
Discard 1, Draw 3

SQL - Traffic Director (1/1 +1)
Elite - Mirror (1/1)
Scavenger - Bluecoat Musketeer (1/2)
Tech - L1 Quince (1/3)

Base - 17
Tech I - 4
Tech II Truth - 5
Tower - 4

8 workers, 0 gold
Hand: 3
Deck: 1
Discard: 5

Let’s see how that option turns out…


#17

Lemme just say thanks @EricF, these are fun puzzles to figure out

That is a much tougher defense… I’m not sure if the better move is to play for blowing up the board next turn w/ Vandy max, or max her now and take the draw into Meta for just her and Garth while Quince is down.

I think seeing as you can’t possibly drop both free speech AND a tech 2 next turn (you didn’t cycle, after all), the better move is to tech up and kill Quince next turn, when you’re cycling into better chances at Free Speech.


Black P1 T4

7 Gold

Techs

Cursed Ghoul, Metamorphosis
Shadow Blade, Hooded Executioner
Dark Pact, Bone Collector

Hand (drawn fairly, first two turns didn't really matter other than what I workered)

Bone Collector
Dark Pact
Deteriorate
Shadow Blade
Jandra, the Negator

Bone Collector (5)
Imp trades with TD
Vandy kills musketeer, takes 2 damage, you get a gold
Skeleton trades with mirror
Worker (4)
Tech 2 Disease (0)

Workers

Jandra, the Negator, Summon Skeletons, Skeletal Archery, Poisonblade Rogue

SQL Garth (1/3 lvl 1)

Techn Jav (1/1)

Backline
Vandy (2/1 lvl 1)
Bone Collector (3/3)
Haunt (1/1)

Base 20
Tech1 5
Tech2 5 DISEASE
Hero’s Hall 4

Hand 5
Deck 4
DC 0

8 Workers

Thoughts

His cycle is off, either he teched 2x Free Speech (in which case, his patrol is going to be weak and I’m going to get free levels and building kills into his next cycle), or he split something beefy like Tiger or Reteller and lays that down next turn, but I’ll have spells and stuff to rip him up. I don’t think this line is going to prove useful to him.

Yea I mean I have Shadow Blade if no Free Speech, and just leveling Vandy off hero kills if he does have it. Should be shredded reasonably well, should get tech 2 kill to delay tech 3 and own the board.

Next Hand

Sacrifice the Weak
Hooded Executioner
Graveyard
Shadow Blade
Dark Pact



#18

P2, Turn 4

8 gold (8)
Scribe (6)
Lawful Search your hand (5)
Reputable Newsman (3) naming 3, I guess? probably doesn’t much matter
Worker (2)
Discard 1, Draw 3. Float 2 gold

SQL - Scribe (1/3 +1)
Scavenger - Reputable Newsman (0/3)
Tech - L1 Quince (1/3)

Base - 17
Tech I - 4
Tech II Truth - 5
Tower - 4

9 workers, 2 gold
Hand: 3
Deck: 5
Discard: 2


#19

Yea I don’t like this position for you…


Black P1 T5

8 Gold

Techs

Cursed Crow, Death and Decay
Cursed Ghoul, Metamorphosis
Shadow Blade, Hooded Executioner
Dark Pact, Bone Collector

Hand (drawn fairly, first two turns didn't really matter other than what I workered)

Sacrifice the Weak
Hooded Executioner
Graveyard
Shadow Blade
Dark Pact

Mid Vandy (6)
Vandy and Haunt kill Scribe
Sacrifice the Weak, Jav and Newsman die, you get a gold (4)
Shadow Blade Quince, you discard a card then draw one? just take whatever’s first in your hand. Vandy Maxbands, dooms BC
BC breaks your tech 2, your base to 15, I get a skeleton
Garth hits your base to 14 hp, takes a damage from Tower
Worker (0)

dc2 d4

Workers

Graveyard, Jandra, the Negator, Summon Skeletons, Skeletal Archery, Poisonblade Rogue

Techn Skele (1/1)

Backline
Vandy (4/5 lvl 5)
Bone Collector (5/5 doomed)
Garth (1/2 lvl 1)

Base 20
Tech1 5
Tech2 5 DISEASE
Hero’s Hall 4

Hand 4
Deck 0
DC 8

9 Workers

Thoughts

Yea guaranteed 3-hero meta next turn, I’ll be able to fetch Gorgon Crow or Ghoul if I like, draw into 2x D&D, this is more or less over.

Next Hand

Metamorphosis
Cursed Ghoul
Thieving Imp
Deteriorate



#20

P2, Turn 5
9 gold (11)
Re-build Tech II
Worker (10)
Max Oni (1)
Discard 2, Draw 4. Float 1 gold.

SQL - L8 Oni (4/5 +1)
Scav, Tech, and Lookout - Soldier (1/1)

Base - 14
Tech I - 4
Tech II Truth - 5
Tower - 4

10 workers, 1 gold
Hand: 4
Deck: 0
Discard: 9