Oh yeah I’m totally happy for it to just be on human side for balance reasons. I think it’s a really nice change that targets the help where its needed (crossup/meaty defense and vs early game attack spam)
I was just concerned about how it’s conceptualised in the game canon, since we’re aiming for elegance and intuition.
I don’t like that at all. The Dragon Form should ALWAYS be better than the human form. There should never be a situation where you lose combat with a dragon form card that you would have won if you could flip it to human form.
Dragon Form version deals more damage and is faster. Human K being an SPD would give him a relatively low commitment spacing tool that opens up his 4 and 5 normals a little, which is something that he lacks. When he’s in Dragon Form, he already has all the tools he needs to punish fast normals anyway.
EX moves have different properties. We already have a similar situation with his human J able to be pumped for +8 damage and being an ender, whereas his dragon J is a starter that just deals a straight 9. So there’s precedent there already. I don’t think this is such a tough pill to swallow.
It would also help in two of his toughest MUs, BBB (where he gets another anti-range tool, and something that can push the robot to attack with 6s, giving Midori’s 4s and 5s a little more play) and Zane (where he gets an anti-meaty tool that doesn’t require him spending a 10 or a 2).
I have real concerns about making Midori’s dragon form more consistently available, but having to trade 10s/dodges to tutor for 2s might be okay.
That doesn’t stop me from hating it. I don’t ever want to say, “man, if only I wasn’t this badass dragon I would have won!”
I’d rather just have the clause on both the DF version and the human version.
Instead of a throw that grabs normals I’d rather have something I’ve suggested for Midori on a few occasions. Make 4 attack a named attack. It would be speed 2.2 or 2.4, still do 4 damage and be a can’t combo move.
Make it knock down.
#GiveMidoriASweep
This doesn’t help meaties or ranged normals though, unless it gets an “interupt normals” ability. I mean I guess that could work for a sweep…
It’s more to give him something to stop going to range in the first place or being oppressed by time spirals. It also gives him an attack he can use in human form to keep people off him and to build a little hand.
Agreed that’s also a problem to solve, and and SPD does nothing for time Spirals. Ideally we would want to give him exactly 1 more ability that helps for 1.0 speed normals *and* Geiger J.
Would it break any matchups to change his 4 to be a 2.2 or 2.4 speed fsfg “flurry of fists” inspired move that also beats faster normals? At 2.2 speed it would kind of be like moving Troq’s fast J to Midori, only it would deal less damage in lieu of normal draw.
I think a sweep with KD would also be cool, but I worry how strong it would be vs Gloria at 2.2 speed. Maybe at 2.4 it would be ok. At either speed, interrupting normal attacks and giving knockdown would be pretty rough for Vendetta.
Edit: flurry of fists would almost *have* to be pumpable to be flavourful. 4+4+4 (what I could see matching the description) would be 12 damage for 3 cards which is almost certainly a trap for midori players. Alternatively we make it a palm strike of some description? Maybe buff damage to 6?
Since it’s a normal and has normal draw I don’t think the damage should be buffed at all. The idea isn’t to give him a universally good card but to give him something that lets him have an alternate game plan when block/throw doesn’t work.
I don’t think it should beat faster normals, and 2.4 is absolutely fast enough. Don’t give it pump or KD, because neither are important to Midori on a neutral poke.
2.4 would be pretty good. Would be even better if both Grave an Geiger J got nerfed to speed 2.6 (like I think they should be). I think 2.2 would be fine if it wasn’t for Gloria.
If this is specifically intended to help with Geiger, then it needs to be some weird speed like 2.3 so it doesn’t interfere with Gloria or Vendetta. Problem is it probably doesn’t help as much vs BBB or Zane as hK SPD. Maybe this 4 attack is a minor enough change that giving him both wouldn’t be an issue?
edit: I’m just wondering if the changes to Geiger - no bonus damage on spirals when in TD, and Gold Burst ending Temporal Distortion - are enough to bring the MU to 4-6? It’s already at 4-6 overall, from a historical perspective.
Yeah that all makes sense. I was just throwing random ideas at it to see what stuck.
So we seem to be settling on:
4 Attack “Crouching Palm Strike”
2.4 speed, 4 damage, can’t combo
Since there’s no ability here (which was the thing I was most keen on adding exactly 1 of) we could still put an SPD on his hK (and/or dK).
If it did have an ability it should be a negative one:
Old Man:
While KD this attacks speed is 4.2
lol While hilarious, if you get crossed up by 4, I don’t think you care, unless you’re Geiger in TD, and we’re fine with that happening anyway.
Just so we’re on the same page the ability applies to Midori while he’s KD. It would be to keep his intended weakness to KD
Ah, okay. I still think that’s not necessary. So Midori gets kind of a crap DP that deals 4. Enh.
Midori has to give up Dragon Form if he tries to undercut a high normal intended to beat SPD dK with 4/5 though. What you’re saying here is actually a reason why SPD hK would be problematic and doesn’t pose much of an issue for SPD dK.
Against 16/20 characters, a throw at 4.4 is just as good as a throw at 0.0. What you’re saying here applies to every grappler-speed throw in the game in most mus, including Rook/Troq K which also beat 5.0 and faster normals but don’t have special requirements tied to their use.
If SPD is going on hK it would be very feel-bad for it to not go on dK as well, but even then I’d argue having it on dK only is better for flavor and uniqueness. Making Midori’s hK an SPD would definitely homogenize his early-game to become more like like Rook/Troq, where the opponent has incentive to use their high normals early to beat out Ks. Putting SPD on dK flips that standard grappler dynamic, making it so the opponent has incentive to save their high normals for Dragon Form and use low normals early. Midori could take advantage of that by glimpsing dK early (and can also use this for crossup defense), but it’s costly. So that’s where the Yomi comes in 