All of this discussion is really making me want to finish my pipedream of a building a Yomi AI that can test out these balance changes for us. It’s so hard to keep track of the possible effects on all 19 MUs whenever a change is proposed.
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We seem to be making headway with Gloria, Geiger could probably use a nerf of some kind, and I continue to maintain BBB needs a heavy rework anyway (Bal-Bas-RC?) so… I’d say there’s cause for optimism on that score.
I feel like only Jaina really needs significant rework. The Hellbot is fine as a concept, imo. Just needs to not have a 9-1 MU against Rook and be slightly less hellish against Midori.
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Well, a key piece would be for me to make it possible for folks to play against the bot (and/or see replays of some of the games) to assess if the bot is actually any good.
But this all depends on me implementing a copy of the rules to train the bot, and then possibly extending AlphaGo Zero to handle games of imperfect implementation. So, maybe it’ll be done about the same time V3 is ready to come out. 
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I’ve never been a fan of BBB’s character (especially the way Overdrive works) but he’s here now, gotta make do.
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That would be cool.
I just don’t think Long Range belongs in the game, it’s so completely orthogonal to all the other representations of the same concepts of zoning and advantage time in Yomi. And it requires the rest of his design to be very… I’ll be charitable and say “unique” in order to fit. Even then he has a very, very polarized match-up chart.
It’s not because he’s too strong or too weak per se (outside of the Rook MU, but that’s very illustrative IMO because Rook is also kind of an outlier character and what’s going on is that their respective idiosyncracies don’t interact well), it’s that he is a bridge too far in weirdness in my opinion.
Well, this is also true of course, but as long as we’re talking about pie in the sky, there’s no reason to limit ourselves to less than a full portion.
I disagree super hard. Keep Yomi weird and if anything, make it weirder. Yomi is a card game first, and I love it most when it plays to those strengths. Having characters that care about suits, that mess with the number of cards you can combat reveal, that interact with the discard are all really cool. So is this really strange “you’re not allowed to play throws” thing, imo.
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Yeah, I agree. I think having more diversity in character designs is a plus, not a minus. Take advantage of the medium (rather than hewing to the same ways of representing traditional fighting game concepts).
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Well, it’s all a matter of taste in the end. But from my perspective, I’m inclined to agree with both of you in principle and looking at nineteen out of twenty characters in Yomi I feel like I can enthusiastically say “why not both”? The design of Yomi is really amazing in that it manages to be both diverse and cohesive at the same time. It’s just BBB who sticks out to my eyes like a sore thumb.
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I don’t think there are any other throws that both pump and KD in the game. If Oni pumps the throw, does it still KD? Or are you saying add an ability to 9/10 that makes it KD when fully pumped?
Clan suggested changing Oni’s 6-attack to a named throw. He proposed the stats: 8.8 speed, 8+4+4. I think this is a great idea, but if we want it to help vs. Arg/DeGrey (x.8 throws) as much as possible I think it should be 8.6 speed. With this change and the consensus DeGrey nerf, I think both Arg and DeGrey are no worse than 6-4 vs. Oni.
Lum-Gloria is definitely Lum adv. so no worries there. Regarding changing how Gloria Q-throw pumps, I think you’re on the right track given that her face cards are especially good vs. Arg and less good vs. DF Midori, and the fact that the other side pumps faces already. Maybe Q-throw 3cp ender 6+5+5, +2 Faces ? My thinking is that making the damage more front-loaded makes it better when all you want to do is combo into it to end DF.
How do you know you’d hate something new before seeing it? 
As long as Midori is still a grappler and can turn into a Dragon, I think it’s totally possible to preserve his uniqueness while improving flavor and balance. I consider something as simple as moving DF to Ace to be a “rework” since making DF uncounterable and more consistent means his other tools need another look.
Assuming BBB is changed so that his normals set range when they deal block damage, what do people think about the following Midori innate change:
“When you block an attack or Joker while in Dragon Form, take no block damage and you may discard that block to return a non-Joker card from your discard pile to your hand instead of drawing a card.”
Makes it so Geiger’s Spirals and BBB’s (tweaked) normals don’t beat block in DF. For flavor I’m thinking of it as Midori’s dragon skin (scales?) protecting him from block damage. To compensate this, Midori doesn’t keep his block if he chooses to fetch a non-Joker from discard.
I’d have to see a good BBB rework idea to convince me.
This is not so much directed at you @FenixOfTheAshes but rather the discourse around Midori in general: It feels like “DF should be on Ace” is a growing opinion, and I just wanted to offer a different perspective.
This seems too good for Midori. Being able to get DF almost exactly whenever he wants it AND having it uncountable would be a much bigger buff than is generally thought, in my opinion. While theoretically it could be balanced by toning down the strength of his face cards, that just seems like a bit of a headache to deal with; with the requisite changes to balance it out, Midori with unlimited access to DF would almost be an entirely new character.
I think it would be better to just grant him a method by which he can grab a 2* from his deck (not discard). This alleviates the problem of Midori not drawing into a 2* he needs while also keeping DF counterable as well as preserving the usefulness of DF allowing him to retrieve cards out of his discard. As a random example, we might give his 10* a new sentence that says “You may also discard this card during the power up phase to search your deck (not discard) for a 2 and put it in your hand.” If we combined this with a clause on 10* that lets you draw when you flip a card around, I think these two changes would be enough to beef up his card flow to acceptable levels. Something like:
Glimpse of the Dragon [Combat Reveal/Power Up Phase]
If you combat-revealed a face card while not in Dragon Form, you may discard this card at the Combat Reveal to draw a card and rotate your face card 180 degrees to do the dragon version of your move. (Aces are not face cards.) You may also discard this card during the Power Up phase to search your deck for a 2."
I am also not the biggest fan of “spreading power” throughout his deck by nerfing dQ and A throw and buffing other moves. Midori is fun to play as precisely because his cards are very lopsided in usefulness. A 22 dmg, undodgable reversal feels so good; a high-setup, high reward 52 dmg super is thrilling. These moves are exciting partially because they are obviously so much better than his other cards. If power is spread throughout the deck, then there is less excitement around drawing certain cards.
Of course, one can argue that this is just “cocaine logic” (to borrow a term from the Sirlin podcasts) and that just because I like this aspect of Midori’s design does not make it good. But I guess I also feel like his cards are not really that imbalanced in terms of power, at least not his face cards. The only non-useful card in my opinion is dJ, which at 2.4 speed is pretty useless in most MUs besides as a punish on a hard throw read or as a valuation trap, but even then, a 2.4 speed starter that can’t be dodged isn’t exactly bad. 
I could support buffing his normal throw damage by a point or two and then skimming that off his specials and supers. (Maybe throws to 9 or 10 damage and FDB to 24+16?). But in my opinion what makes Midori an interesting character is having cards that are so good that simply drawing them is exciting (or relieving, depending on the game state 
).
Of course, the holy grail solution would be to spread power throughout his deck while maintaining the feeling of having super overwhelmingly good moves. But unless we come up with a concrete way to do that, I would prefer a less consistent Midori that feels fun to play rather than a more balanced Midori who is less exciting to pilot.
As always, feel free to change my mind on any of this! 
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I agree with most o fathers with the exception of the uselessness of dJ. That card does work!
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I love it!
I’m starting a petition to call this reworked Glimpse “FEAST YOUR EYES upon the Dragon” 
I could see a version of Midori with that ability and slightly reduced face card damage, after proper Geiger/BBB/Gloria changes, being even more fun to pilot and not winning or losing any mu worse than 4-6.
Midori rework ideas:
-95 hp
-9 dmg normal throws
-Innate change: When you block an attack or Joker while in Dragon Form, take no block damage and you may discard that block to return a non-Joker card from your discard pile to your hand instead of drawing a card.
-Glimpse (10*) [Combat Reveal / End of Turn]: If you combat-revealed a face card while not in Dragon Form, draw a card and rotate it 180 degrees to do the Dragon version of your move. You can discard this at end of turn to search your deck (not discard pile) for a 2.
-hJ 7+7 dmg
-dQ 12 dmg
-dK 15 dmg and has ability to beat normal attacks speed 5.0 and faster like Rook/Troq K
-FDB 24+16, +A dmg
Buffs: +5 hp, +1 normal throw dmg, immune to block dmg in DF, flipping a face card with Glimpse draws you a card, can discard Glimpse at EoT to search for a 2 from deck only, dK beats 5.0 and faster normals
Nerfs: Must discard the DF block if you want to return a non-Joker card to your hand, hJ+/dQ/dK -2 damage, FDB -1 pump
Maybe something like this could work?
Imo, if you want to play a grappler that has generally good cards and consistent access to his super throw after a little bit of work, Troq is right over there. 
But, seriously, taking power off Midori’s Dragon cards AND boosting his human form just feels like bad theming to me. Same with putting DF on his 2 and nerfing FDB. I don’t think his MUs against Zane, Geiger, and BBB need all that.
Of all the Midori suggestions so far, the one I like the most is giving hK (and only hK) the SPD ability, with no other changes.
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This argument right here has done some serious work on my brain. I was definitely in the camp of “DF should be on his ace” or “let him power up for 2s” - basically anything like this to increase his consistency. Now I’m much less convinced that it’s a good idea to do either of those things. Consider me fully convinced by the new glimpse fetch mechanic you suggested. It adds some consistency and feels on brand.
I could get on board with this, but my only worry is that it looks/feels weird that his hK has it but his dK doesn’t? I can see why we would want it that way for balance reasons though. Attempts to punch out dK are pretty strong bravery and should be rewarded.
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I’d be worried about Midori with “Beats 5.0 speed or faster normals” K with 2 normals (4.2/5.2) that beat most normals that attempt to beat that.
Could be a good thing.
Dragon Midori with that though might be too overbearing since it limits your throw punish options. It is the “second fastest” throw in the game (not counting DeGrey 7, Vendetta King.) meaning that unless you have a 0.0 throw super you have to Attack Punish the Dragon King. Limiting that to 5.0 normals might be too harsh. (he has Dragon Jack undercut along with Dragon Queen) Midoris Dragon Blocks are super strong the Dragon King/block mixup is pretty good as is.
So yeah fan of SPD King on Human side (it’d help his “footsies”), not on Dragon side.
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