I’ve added those 
Q and 
J changes. Though I kept Troq fast J at 2.4 speed for now so it trades with Geiger J until we know more.
Was that J change also supposed to be accompanied by Good Move to 1.2 speed? More importantly, if we do that will we have to change its name back to Eagle Totem!? 
Also added the Zane changes, though doing multiple non-consensus changes was a bit draining.
Now we have at least some indication that we’ve considered 
(10/20) which is really encouraging!
Right now I’d say 90% of testing effort needs to be aimed at sorting out what the hell will actually work for since he has among the least consensus (though happily lots of suggestions) of the top-tier characters.
I’m not sure it’s a good idea to list the idea of removing Max Anarchy as a proper option. I think we should definitely be testing Zane without it to start with, just to see how powerful the rest of his kit is if he doesn’t have that to build for, but it just feels wrong to have one character who has only a single Super move. I’d rather have something that’s indisputably garbage as his second Super instead of no Super at all.
The main benefit of testing Zane without Anarchy is that testing only that change can be done without playing in rules-less mode, something that’ll make testing other changes much more tedious (at least when testing them online).
I think so. The only disadvantaged MUs that it affects, off the top of my head, would be vs Onimaru, where you might conceivably now have AA undercut by Oni’s A. I don’t think that’s backbreaking, so I would sign off on it.
So I guess I’ll remove that option maybe? I was kind of trolling with it, but I also just wanted something up there for him even if it wasn’t all consensus.
On reflection it might be best to just remove all but consensus changes for now, and make a note that we’re testing other options.
Maybe just have a section for “changes under consideration” or something?
Done. Though I will miss my punk inspired names for each of the builds, it makes sense to list the changes as you suggest
Good points, especially about how weakening Zane’s Plan A pushes him towards Anarchy.
Removing normal draw from Zane altogether is a huge nerf! He relies on his normals in neutral a lot more than most characters since he doesn’t have fast face cards (except Crash Bomb of course, but that’s his reversal). I could see removing normal draw exclusively from meaties being a good balance change, but it feels inelegant to me at first pass. At least the Meaty Attacks part of his innate already specifically mentions and modifies his normal attacks, so it would feel less like an afterthought.
Balance-wise, removing normal draw from Meaty Attacks makes less of a difference vs. grapplers since Defense Mastery nullifies normal draw sometimes anyway, so that’s good for the Troq and Rook mus (and maybe for a reworked/buffed Midori mu too). More generally, this nerfs Zane the most vs. characters with the fewest answers to meaties which are usually his best mus. All of this sounds good to me, so my only reservations relate to elegance.
A lot of people are suggesting a major MA nerf, but none have described what exactly that would look like. Are they talking about making it 1.0 speed? 3.0? 5.0? With MA at super slow speeds for a 4-ace super, the EV of a Zane combo starting off a high normal is so much greater that you basically never play MA in combat. In practice, Zane would just use it as a dodge followup 99% of the time, which is still very lame gameplay imo.
I think if we’re making MA slower than 0.3, we’d be better off reworking it altogether. I know several people have proposed ideas to merge MA with C&D. Here’s a version I think works well:
AA, Maximum Anarchy, 1.0 speed, 15 damage, Can’t Combo
Ability [During Combat] - If you won combat and Maximum Anarchy deals damage, all players remake their hands (each player reveals their hand, shuffles it, puts it on the bottom of their deck, then draws that many cards).
EDIT: Changed it to “all players” because Hobusu noted it would be more fun in 2v2!
C&D would be removed from his 4. C&D isn’t broken right now, just a bit feel-bad. Zane can get a Full Combo trigger from every combat option, meaning he doesn’t have to go out of his way at all to use C&D. With this change, Zane would have to deliberately dodge into or manage to land a move that is subpar compared to his other options, so he has to evaluate whether remaking the opponent’s hand (and his own) is worth the trouble.
I chose 1.0 speed specifically to make the Zane mirror less dumb. Oddly enough (pun intended), Zane bodies himself really hard because his only realistic answer to odd meaties is Crash Bomb. Having one more option to trade with meaties makes the matchup much less ridiculous. I worded the ability so that it will not trigger when MA trades with 1.0 attacks.
I could see the following changes working well together:
-Opponent sees Shen flips, then decides whether to facedown
-Crash Bomb can’t be interrupted except by knockdowns
-2-Ace, 1.0 speed MA with C&D effect to all players when you win combat and it deals damage (C&D removed from 4)
-Jack 11 dmg 2 CP Ender
Ignoring balance, I still like Jack as a 2 CP Ender because it makes evaluating how to combo less obvious in certain cases, which is interesting and skill-testing (read: fun!). And since MA isn’t a viable Plan B, we don’t have to worry about it pushing Zane towards degenerate play. Could maybe add the “meaty attacks don’t get normal draw” change too, but I think it would be mostly unnecessary and somewhat inelegant.
Note that without 0.X 50 dmg MA and the nerf to combo damage, we have to watch the Troq mu closely. But I think with Troq nerfs like 1.2 AA, removing J ability, and 2.4 Fast J, the mu could be “okay”. Would need testing.
I like that version of Maximum Anarchy a lot! Though I do think that the name doesn’t fit if only the opponent’s hand gets remade… That only sounds like “medium Anarchy” to me. 
I like that a lot. Random Zane hand is probably better than random [your favorite character] hand anyway. : P I’ll write that in.
Very pro all these changes. A nerf to his normals during advantage time is definitely the most elegant way to go with reducing his card flow. Coupled with 2CP Jack *and* giving a bunch of oppressed characters ways to beat crash bomb, it’s starting to seem like me might be getting somewhere.
As a side note, I’m pretty sure the required speed for new Anarchy will become apparent during testing Vs (reworked) Troq and (unchanged) Grave. If it becomes apparent that instead of 1.0 it needs to be faster we can look at 0.3 as an on-brand option.
Characters with big supers like that already dodge into them a large majority of the time, so having Zane have to do so is not that big a deal. Plus, it introduces… gasp… an actual game of Yomi! Because if Zane is just dodging his ass off trying to MA you, then you can go in with throws, opening you up to a surprise MA! I mean big normal combos can be jokered and MA definitely has its advantages over that, so I don’t think that’s a real thing, but even if that does promote not playing MA raw except in dire circumstances (or big reads) think how much more HYPE it will be when someone gets slammed by it! How amazing is it now when CMB lands? I have suggested before I think MA should be 50 speed, and it has not been a joke. Moves like Pilebunker and Wall Dive Suplex already show that super slow moves that hit like a truck already have a place in Yomi, and while they are much less commitment than Max Anarchy they also don’t do 50 damage in one hit. Plus this has the added benefit of ACTUALLY being a weirdo trickshot, just like CMB. Additionally, instantaneous moves are not anarchy, they are surgical. Getting popped by the slowest move in the game would be MAXIMUM ANARCHY.
FWIW, I think this and maybe doing the slight meaty draw reduction that is being suggested would probably be enough to make him more in line with the rest of the cast. As long as Troq is getting nerfed, of course (which, how could he not be?). Zane absolutely does NOT need a 50 damage reversal to be good. He has Crash Bomb, 2.3 speed normals, and meaties. He has such a high win rate now because he wins all the matches he would have won normally with his good moves, and then wins a bunch he should have lost anyway with 0.0 speed 50 damage moves.
I know this is not a popular suggestion, but it’s probably the change in Yomi that I feel the most confident is actually good.
For the record, I completely agree with you that Zane doesn’t need a 50 damage reversal. If Zane actually needs a 50 damage attack, then I also completely agree with making it the slowest attack in the game.
I just don’t think that he needs a 50 damage anything on top of his already very good kit. I can potentially see some merit in the argument that a non-Crash Bomb reversal of some kind might be in order, but if it is then the damage should be pretty damn low since his plan A is so strong.
Yeah, I’d be interested to see how he fares (1) just removing MA, or (2) removing MA and removing normal draw.
While we’re at it, we should limit Troq to war-stomping only once per turn. That’s a pretty uncontroversial fix, imo.
edit: I agree that it would be nice for the Zane mirror to be less coinflippy and dumb by having a tool against meaties besides his K, but I feel like that’s a nice to have more than something that should drive a rebalancing effort. His mirror is dumb, but it’s by definition a 50/50.
I added the suggested Zane changes including the new Anarchy suggestion to the “under consideration” section. I just guessed at an appropriate chip damage of 3, since he has 2, 4 and 5 chip from his other special/super attacks.
One interaction of interest if we make Crash Bomb beatable by knockdown, when BBB plays Cog shot into crash bomb, he isn’t interupted so can follow up with damage. However if he does then this would mean his attack doesn’t knockdown anymore. Does this matter at all from an intuition point of view?
“If neither player is knocked down…” elegance, please.
See: Cog Shot interrupting Long Arm.
Then you can’t war-stomp after normal throwing. “1 per turn” is plenty elegant.
Obviously the solution is to have War Stomp undo KD if they’re already on the ground!
(This does not in fact solve any problems)
I see why people want to change it, but personally I think it’d be fine if you just got rid of the card draw part of War Stomp and kept everything else about it in tact. I like that extra wrinkle in his play. I wouldn’t cry if it was gone though.
I’m happy with the proposed Zane changes! Good ideas all around. @thehug0naut where did 1.3 Slipstream Phase come from? I don’t think that particular change is necessary. Also it matters very little but I’d make my suggested MA rework have 2 block damage, the idea being that its only advantage over Slipstream is its ability or if you really need to trade with 1.0 attacks.
re: Troq War Stomp
War Stomp is supposed to be like Rook’s Ground Pound in FSFG. It’s a move to knockdown the opponent from a distance and help close the gap. In Yomi, the “gap-closing” element is conceptualized as Troq drawing and his opponent discarding. Ground Pound has no effect against an already knocked down opponent, because that would make little sense. Therefore, I think War Stomp having the wording “If neither player is knocked down…” is better, both for flavor and elegance.