I mean I’m not a fan of TPoS either but Grave gets away with it primarily because he is “TPoS: The Character”. Zane, without MA, already has power.
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That’s true. I think that regardless of what is done to MA, Zane should get nerfs to his combo damage through something like 2cp Jack. Once that’s been done, and we’re hopefully not looking at a character who almost 6-4s half the cast, I think we’ll see that MA is important from a balance perspective to help him against the few characters who can exploit his normal gameplan, without being overcentralizing in other matchups.
EDIT: @Hobusu I’m not entirely sure, but I think that in balance testing it was thought that BBB wrecked Troq. 2.2 J at range ties with Junkshot and beats BBB’s 1.0 normals. Of course, we now know that Troq does fine there.
As the guy standing off to one side waving the “Down with Shenanigans” flag, I think that Fenix and Nijima both make good points here, from the perspective of leaving Zane largely as is.
But my personal preference with regards to Zane, instead of nerfing his meaties, would be to remove Shenanigans and make necesary changes/buffs so Meaty Attacks could be his only innate, making him a crossup/knockdown vortex focused rushdown character. (The knockdown-focused characters we currently have in the game -Quince and Persephone mainly, grapplers to some extent- are more controlling, so I think that would be an interesting niche for him and would keep most of his deck profile (card-efficient, high-damage combos, weak vs Knockdown, very strong knockdown pressure but unorthodox ways to get there) intact.
It would also highlight his “immigrant from another fighting game” theme, since Meaty Attacks feel like a pretty fundamental game mechanic but none of the other characters really have access to it.
How do people feel about that direction?
Ah, that would explain it! Thanks for the history lesson! 
If this were to happen I think the damage on J should be bumped up to 11 or so.
It’s funny that this consideration was given to Troq when it wasn’t given to the two existing grapplers. I guess when you’re constrained by the requirement of changing as few cards as possible it can lead to less then ideal choices.
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I really like your suggestion for Crash Bomb. It’s elegant and consistent with how existing interupt moves work. Most importantly though (as you point out) it directly buffs 
who are all currently crushed by Zane. This seems to be as close to a perfect change as I can think of.
I’d like to play devil’s advocate if I may. I initially really liked the 2CP Anarch Crusher when it was suggested a while back, since I agree a nerf to his efficiency is needed. However @cpat was very clear that if we hard nerf Zane’s combo damage efficiency, especially in a way that makes it harder to spend cards then he’s automatically driven to play for anarchy more, which feels like the opposite of what he’s supposed to be doing as an “only offense” character.
This is why I’m generally more in favour of reducing his card flow at the source by targeting his access to normal draw. If we stop meaties from getting normal draw, or stop Zane from getting any normal draw entirely then Shenanigans becomes a “wacky version of normal draw” (thanks for that great phrasing @mysticjuicer). This wouldn’t actually reduce his combo damage, but it means going in costs him more cards, which in turn makes it harder to build for AAAA alongside his plan A (pure and simple murderising).
This all said, I’m happy to table literally *any* remotely consensus Zane changes as (appropriately enough) he seems to be the most divisive of characters. I think the debate about what to do with MA will rage on until we get some hard data on it.
I’ll try and make the wiki post for Zane at some point today. I’ll include a couple of alternative change-sets for him.
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Hmmm, this idea is definitely among the most extreme takes on what to do with Zane. I suspect it won’t gain much traction with the community, particularly as shenanigans is such a meme. I’m also not sure what changes he’d need to make him work with this style of play. Maybe you could elaborate on what you think he would need?
A while back I suggested it was pretty reasonable to make an Anarchist Jaina since her innate is so problematic. Maybe this could be formulated as an alternative version of Zane?
EDIT: I have in my head a version of Zane wearing a business suit before he became the instrument of Anarchy, a bit like Saitama was out job hunting before he became a hero. Maybe he could be Serious Zane to go with Anarchist Jaina?
In a 2 character box set “Order and Chaos” obviously
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I honestly don’t know what he would need, just that since Shenanigans is such a massively powerful card engine, he would almost certainly need something if we took it entirely away from him, even though he’s currently the most powerful character in the game. Probably more knockdown, since he can’t rely on Shenanigans to find it.
As you said, Anarchy is not the only trick in his bag, he also has very damage-efficient cards (even without Shenanigans to give him card-efficient combos as well) fast normal attacks and throws, and heaps of linkers, and his meaty attacks are very oppressive against many cast members. Those combos and crossup games seem to me more like what he was intended to play for, than trolololing around with card-neutral dodges and the scariest super-mixup in the game.
Obviously this doesn’t help if you want to get rid of Shenanigans entirely, but for those who don’t want to get rid of it… What if it was reworded to not work if Zane dodges? Maybe something like:
Shenanigans
Once per turn, when you win combat with an attack or throw and could play a combo card, reveal two cards from the top of your deck and use up to one of them in your combo. Discard the unused card(s).
That combined with changing Meaty Attacks to not give normal draw (either on opponent’s KD or all the time) would make his card efficiency more reasonable without getting rid of either innate entirely.
You could do that, but I would have to ask you… what is it Shenanigans does, that you think is good and want to keep? What is the reason Zane has an ability like that?
It seems to me that the answer, apart from the card flow which we now know is stronger than it needs to be, is to make his payoffs unpredictable -even to his own player to some degree. I don’t see that as a good thing, but maybe I’m missing something?
If Shenanigans replaces normal draw, then you are getting two chances to draw into the card you want for your combo (at the expense of losing access to both of them, even if you use them). I’m not sure if that is a beneficial tradeoff, but it does seem like has the potential to still be advantageous. If that ability continues to be extended to dodges, then it is definitely more beneficial than normal draw.
The fact that in either of those cases, it adds unpredictability is ok, I think, much in the same way that Lum’s Roll The Dice has an unpredictable payoff after a combo ends.
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It’s a matter of taste I suppose. Lum’s ability is more conditional, overall less impactful, and still very far down my list of innates by preference.
I hope I don’t come across as a tryhard fun-hater here… as I see it, variance and unknown information are things you can account for and adapt to in a way that outright random results are not, and the latter are far less fun and interesting.
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Don’t worry about it, this is an important discussion to have!
Just so we’re on the same page, can you explain the difference between variance and randomness in this sentence? The two aren’t exactly synonyms, but they are similar enough that I’m having trouble understanding the distinction you’re making.
Sure! Thanks for asking.
There isn’t a difference between variance and randomness, I might have been unclear. Variance is randomness, but in the usage I had in mind and how it’s usually used in the context of Yomi it’s random options, not random outcomes. For example, you start a game with 7 different cards - those are random and any given hand can obviously be better than another, but the risks and rewards of playing any given card are well understood. A bad hand can be salvaged by correct strategy. That’s variance, as I had it in mind. What you don’t have are cards that e.g deal “1-10” damage where a play can be ruined by sheer bad luck. (Or, you have a very few, like Blackjack, but what I’m saying is I broadly don’t like those.) Those would be random outcomes.
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But normal draw has the same randomness to it, doesn’t it? You might draw something that makes the combo you have in hand anywhere from 0-10 damage better than it would have been (or, got forbid, you’re Grave, and you draw the 3rd ace so you can hitconfirm into TPoS). 'Nans are just a more stilted version of the same.
That said, I’m happy to agree to disagree about the tastefulness (tastiness?) of the design.
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That is completely true. It’s part of all games with elements of chance, and part of what I like so much about Yomi is that compared to other card games, correct valuation and strategy can mitigate the effects of luck to a large extent, but it is obviously a matter of degree.
What I don’t like are the elements of Yomi that foreground chance at the expense of decision-making.
If Zane doesn’t have Anarchy, then I don’t care about him having card neutral dodges. Being able to dodge into a 6 damage throw or a 9 doesn’t scare me. If he’s dodging without a J or K in his hand, he has some chance of rolling into them with Shenans, but… shrugs I kind of put that in the same category of “you can hit with a 2 and draw the 3 you need to be able to get a straight sometimes.”
My argument for keeping Zane’s Shenans would be that it’s thematic for a character that should be zany to have something like that, and for a character that is a rushdown style character to have. If it’s too powerful for him to have Shenans and normal draw, then I’d rather he lose normal draw than Shenans, personally.
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While we’re on the discussion of Zane, I just want to offer my thoughts on this. As a relatively new player–I have no real input on balance and competitiveness–I just want to say how much I both hate playing against and as Zane. He’s the only one from the entire cast that I feel strongly about–I hate him, but I enjoy all the other characters (with the caveat that I have not yet played as BBB).
So, I’m intrigued by these discussions of changing him. One thing I haven’t yet heard much about is Creator and Destroyer. All of his abilities are frustrating, but this one irks me the most. I understand it’s part of his “theme”, and I suppose it just boils down to me not liking the lack of planning both as Zane and as his opponent. I’d be happy for a v.3 to see this ability go away entirely.
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Fix Anarchy and I think Creator and Destroyer becomes much more fun, imo. Currently it’s a p good tool for diffusing big supers, which - as the character with the biggest super - he probably doesn’t actually need.
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Thinking about it a bit more, assuming that BBB’s Q moving to 3.0 speed doesn’t break his MU against the rest of the cast, I like removing armor from Troq’s J and moving it to 2.4 speed (or maybe even 2.6 speed). This has the benefit of making Zane’s 2 a much better neutral tool in Zane v. Troq.
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