XCAFS20 Initial Ruleset definition discussion!

Codex
81

Uhhh I can say that Hallucination + DS combo is instrumental in countering any T2 big dude strategy. I’ve won against fully setup Dozer+Shrine boards on multiple occasions with DS sniping.

It’s somewhat under the radar, but I can’t think of any other Blue reactive move that swings the table in Blue’s favor this much. It’s the only cost-efficient Blue reactive play.

And no, Judgement Day can’t really be compared since it occupies an entire turn and leaves you only with 3/4 Bigby facing off against an opposing hero or two. DS+Hallucination leaves you with DS at the very minimum, likely with a couple more fodder units on the board.

Dreamscape aside (I’ve only used it once and it was a 2v2 game), proposed DS change kills Hallucination combo too, so the discussion around Dreamscape is moot imho.

Yeah, big disagree here.

You are basically challenging Sirlin’s design intention with the card at this point. He worded DS in such a way that it’s ability kills Illusions. He designed two cards that can give Illusion tag to non-Illusion opposing units. How can you suggest that this is not an intended interaction and can be removed at a whim I don’t know.

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82

Well, Metamorphosis IS an ultimate spell that costs SIX gold. These sort of cards are supposed to put opponent on hard clock and demand playing around them. In that case by constructing a Tower.

I don’t disagree that Meta is currently overtuned even with “sacrifice your units” drawback, but I think the issue is not Metamorphosis the spell so much, as it is Vandy the hero who makes Meta too accessible, hence my proposed Vandy levelling nerf.

Cutting Readiness not only keeps the core design intent of the Metamorph intact, but also nerfs it significantly in a strategic sense — Black would have to make a hard choice between utilizing Demon Heroes for offense and patrolling with them.

Putting opponent on a hard 2-turn clock with all-out attack sounds nice, but leaving yourself open to counterattack is very all-in. You will lose your Graveyard, you will lose your Tech I, you will lose all comeback possibilities. Red might just race you outright. Attacking with both Demon Heroes would be very all-eggs-in-one-basket, which IMO is quite in tune with Metamorphosis design intention.

83

Are we focused at getting things more balanced for monocolour, or for multicolour? Drill Sergeant losing the ability to target is more of a problem in MonoBlue, since it has few ways to target as it is.

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84

I’ve been giving this some thought this morning, but it’s surprisingly difficult to wrap Dreamscape and Hallucination into a single card in a satisfying way.

85

I would like to see hallucination or dreamscape do something in addition to making things illusions. Dreamscape could have a tap ability maybe, or hallucination could cause a buff or debuff.

86

Well, Hallucination already does… it kills Illusions by targeting them, although that’s rarely seen in practice.

87

If people dont want to break the the DS / Illusions combos, but we dont want DS to be able to put all the counters on 1 units/pass them back and forth with another DS, why not keep the original wording and just make it so that it can only move counters to units that dnt have +1/+1 counters (like sparing partner?)

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88

But… but… my 13/13 Spectral Aven… :worried: Well, I suppose making that impossible is the point of modifying Drill Sergeant at all…

89

wasnt going to happen with the current suggested balance changes anyway.

wasn’t going to happen with the currently suggested balance changes anyway. and DS garrisons are way too good atm. And thematically, why does a drill Sargent yelling at recruits make your bird stronger?

90

Erm… because it was really an Overeager Cadet? It’s the Truth, I promise.

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91

@bansa I take some issue with your posts here

I didn’t feel like I was getting particularly defensive, nor do I expect everyone to 100% play optimally or view the game exactly as I do.

I do feel (somewhat) strongly about Dreamscape being just not a really fun or interesting card, though; it’s just too similar to Hallucination, and at the more optimal levels of play (which I do care about, even if I don’t expect everyone to play that way) it’s kind of meaningless.

I copied this list of changes from an old thread Eric started as a jumping off point. I do want to propose more / different changes, but also didn’t want to get too wild with changes for the purposes of running a tournament.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with critical analysis of past games publically recorded here. It isn’t meant to hurt feelings or judge the player, just the play, and that’s useful to strategy discussions.

Again, I like the forum to be a place to have fun, I don’t expect people to play perfect, but in the context of a conversation about game balance and play for tournaments, I think it’s appropriate to analyze use of a card and how effective a tool it is to winning games, as well as whether the flavor is fun or interesting.

On the balance changes

After playing some green v red with Bansa, I actually think the nuttiest changes are Giant Panda and Ironbark, not Rich Earth. They are way more effective than I had thought they’d be. Rich Earth definitely feels playable now but not overwhelmingly powerful (it’s still spending a gold and a card early on zero board position). Midori buff also is really enticing for Murkwood Allies. The difference between 2 and 3 attack is really noticeable.

The Red changes sort of made me feel like Fire is the de-facto tech 2 and I’m not sure I love it. The nerfs to Blood and Anarchy are definitely warranted in multi-color, but felt bad for mono.

I will try to take the feedback amassed ITT, revise the list of changes, and give it a shot for further discussion so we all can build some consensus around what we’d like to do for the fall tourney.

I am also open to hearing whether folks would rather see this be a mono tourney or full multicolor.

More to come :slight_smile:

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92

My feelings about mono vs. multi may change as the list does, but I feel much more likely to want to participate in a multicolor tournament. I like some of the changes and dislike others, and naturally I’d want to be able to avoid drafting those I dislike… and of course, that’s more likely to be possible if I can pick any 3 factions rather than 1 of 6 groups of 3. Though, this somewhat depends on whether “monocolor” allows for substituting in one or both Neutral heroes in this context.

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93

I want to say that I don’t think this ruleset is settled. I know that iterating on something so sweeping and major is super difficult through just discussion, and that’s kind of the point of the tournament, but I think we should give it a little more talk before we lock it in.

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94

One thing @thehug0naut and I have tried is changing Hallucination to:
Draw a card and choose one:
-Up to two tech 0, I, or II units are Illusions this turn.
-Destroy an upgrade or ongoing spell

We were playing Green v Blue and I was the Blue player. I rather liked the change to keep Rich Earth in check since it can be so powerful in that matchup and, when we played with it at 2-gold cost, it felt like I couldn’t win. That said, I’m fully willing to admit I’m definitely the worse player between me and Hugh.

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95

This is only true if you cast illusion twice or have dreamscape out, im saying the cards as they are need to do more WITHOUT requiring the exact right combo card to make it work.

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96

At the cost of 2, this would be a little overboard. The 2 best upgrade removals are 2 cost, nature reclaims and versatile style, and definitely do NOT give card advantage.

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97

That’s fair, I figured I’d bring up what we played with. It didn’t seem especially harrowing but, like I said, I’m the worse player of the two and we are only playing one specific matchup.

98

That’s fair. Blue is more of a combo color than most, and both Dreamscape and Hallucination are pure combo cards that do nothing meaningful alone… arguably the only two such cards in the game. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want them to be able to do something on their own.

I like the idea of Hallucination being able to destroy upgrades (without the card draw)… maybe Dreamscape could have "Sacrifice Dreamscape => summon 2 Mirror Illusions (limit:2)?

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99

I prefer Dreamscape: tap, create a mirror illusion, limit 2, in addition to its current effect. Giving a way for Quince to more cheaply spam mirrors seems a great use of this card.

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100

That definitely feels more tempting, but there are a few reasons I lean more towards the sacrifice version.

  1. It makes having a 2nd copy of the spell not be completely pointless.
  2. When played as part of a combo, (Macciatus’s aura bonus and/or some multi-targeting card), Dreamscape can already be quite powerful… a free Mirror every turn on top of that feels like it might be a bit too oppressive.
  3. When not played as part of a combo, $3 is a hefty investment for no immediate effect and paints a big target on Quince, who’s not exactly martially… proficient. You’d need to be able to hold off the opponent’s aggression to be able to start seeing any value from the play if you have to wait until next turn to get your first Mirror, and doing so successfully at a $3 disadvantage with Quince as your hero choice is asking a lot. The sacrifice version can act as a panic button similar to Summon Skeletons in an emergency.

Hmm… although, in light of that comparison, the sacrifice version I proposed is probably not good enough. Summon Skeletons is a basic spell, supposedly weaker than codex spells, the Mirrors are less effective as emergency blockers than Skeletons are, SS doesn’t require being locked into Quince, to get full value out of the sacrifice effect you’d have to have no Mirrors in play and Quince spawns one on arrival, and Quince can just pay gold to summon Mirrors without needing to tech in a card… $3 and a card is about worth $4 anyway, so yeah, my proposal isn’t good enough.

What about “Quince’s abilities cost $1 less to activate.”?

1 Like