[Tournament] Codex Asynchronous Winter Swiss 2018 (CAWS18)

ROUND 4!

  1. [CAWS18] witspur [Disease]/Blood/Anarchy vs Marto [Discipline]/Strength/Finesse
  2. [CAWS18] FrozenStorm [Anarchy]/Necro/Growth vs Dreamfire [Strength]/Blood/Future
  3. [CAWS18] zhavier [Finesse]/Anarchy/Blood vs Nekoatl [Discipline]/Past/Law
  4. [CAWS18] codexnewb [Necro]/Anarchy/Growth vs flagrantangles [Bashing]/Fire/Peace
  5. [CAWS18] Bomber678 [Balance]/Peace/Law vs EricF [Discipline]/Strength/Finesse
  6. [CAWS18] charnel_mouse [Balance]/Blood/Strength vs tie MonoPurple
  7. [CAWS18] thehug0naut [Feral]/Present/Blood vs Bob199 MonoPurple
1 Like

ROUND 5!

  1. [CAWS18] Marto [Discipline]/Strength/Finesse vs Dreamfire [Strength]/Blood/Future
  2. [CAWS18] zhavier [Finesse]/Anarchy/Blood vs witspur [Disease]/Blood/Anarchy
  3. [CAWS18] tie MonoPurple vs codexnewb [Necro]/Anarchy/Growth
  4. [CAWS18] Nekoatl [Discipline]/Past/Law vs FrozenStorm [Anarchy]/Necro/Growth
  5. [CAWS18] EricF [Discipline]/Strength/Finesse vs thehug0naut [Feral]/Present/Blood

Flagrantangles gets the bye.

4 Likes

ROUND 6! The field is narrowing…

  1. [CAWS18] Marto [Discipline]/Strength/Finesse vs zhavier [Finesse]/Anarchy/Blood
  2. [CAWS18] witspur [Disease]/Blood/Anarchy vs codexnewb [Necro]/Anarchy/Growth
  3. [CAWS18] flagrantangles [Bashing]/Fire/Peace vs Dreamfire [Strength]/Blood/Future
  4. [CAWS18] EricF [Discipline]/Strength/Finesse vs FrozenStorm [Anarchy]/Necro/Growth
4 Likes

Round 7!
And we have our first rematch.

  1. [CAWS18] codexnewb [Necro]/Anarchy/Growth vs Marto [Discipline]/Strength/Finesse
  2. [CAWS18] zhavier [Finesse]/Anarchy/Blood vs EricF [Discipline]/Strength/Finesse
  3. [CAWS18] Dreamfire [Strength]/Blood/Future vs witspur [Disease]/Blood/Anarchy
3 Likes

ROUND 8! And then there were 3…

  1. [CAWS18] EricF [Discipline]/Strength/Finesse vs Marto [Discipline]/Strength/Finesse

Dreamfire gets the bye.

3 Likes

ROUND 9!

  1. [CAWS18] Dreamfire [Strength]/Blood/Future vs Marto [Discipline]/Strength/Finesse

EricF gets the Bye.

3 Likes

Looks like it is down to EricF and Marto.

FINALS!

  1. [CAWS18] FINALS Marto [Discipline]/Strength/Finesse vs EricF [Discipline]/Strength/Finesse
3 Likes

Are we concluding that Finesse is actually OP?

1 Like

@FrozenStorm I think fencers are more than strong but Finesse is not quite OP. Real close to OP would be Rook + Birds because teching Birds Nest almost always guarantees opponent to spend more resourses to deal with them. Hence, the three Strengths in final top 3. I’m still pretty much a newb, so I’m writting this hoping someone would let me know how to effectively deal with the birds. Actuall, it’s not just the birds but the combination of Rook’s extra 1HP and the fact that he has the Birds Nest provide huge value for low cost without needing much setup or risks in early or late game.

Not quite a mirror match, as I believe Marto mostly used Tech 2 Strength, while I used Tech 2 Finesse.

IIRC I only played Birds’ Nest once in the 8 matches I had this tournament, though I did tech it pretty often, and just the threat of it probably influenced some of my opponents. I also don’t think it was a cornerstone card for Marto or EricF, who leaned first and foremost on Fencers and Spartners.
I agree Birds’ Nest is a very strong spell, but IMO it’s not half as bad as Dark Pact. I think I teched DP every single match in CAMS18, often twice, and played it multiple times per match. And I think the same holds for the tournaments @FrozenStorm won playing [Demon/Necro]/Finesse.

2 Likes

Birds serve to punish decks who are trying to drag the game out. Against decks that can apply pressure early decks, the lack of blockers on the ground really hurts. Strength in the top 3 for one tournament should not be the grounds for a nerf, it can be many things, such as Strength just does well against the decks other people brought. If you want advice on beating certain strats (like Birds nests) it also really help to say what decks you are playing, and the advice for red for example does not work at all for purple.

3 Likes

@bansa my comment was partially tongue-in-cheek, indeed I think Grave + Rook is pretty strong and Finesse’s early tempo just complements it nicely (Two-Step is great for Birds and Rambasa, Discord is great support, Safe Attacking and Sensei’s Advice is great for Fencers, etc.)

It is interesting, though, how far Finesse has come. Two years ago it was rarely seen in the meta, now it seems to be pretty common to splash it into a mono-color for early tempo and have that be a pretty solid improvement on the mono alone. I don’t think it’s OP strictly speaking, but it does serve really well backing up early tempo-focused strategies, and Tech 2 Finesse was grossly underrated in early tournaments (Grounded Guide is pretty nasty combined with any kind of card draw to swarm Fencers, which Vandy and Grave both provide nicely)

Bird’s Nest is probably a top 5/10 spell in terms of % games played in its spec and that’s b/c its a strong card. @Dreamfire is 100% correct that DP is in a tier of it’s own though; you’d be hard pressed to find a Demonology game where Dark Pact isn’t used. The tempo you get early on in the game with extra cards is absurd and the base damage cost has proven out to be almost entirely irrelevant.

4 Likes

Thanks everyone above for your comments. I don’t mean that they are broken because you can still deal with them, it just take more resources and Rook’s extra 1 HP has always been a 6 feet huddle to jump over to me everytime I try to remove him. I’m being totally whiny and maybe more experience will help, but it is true that Rook provides with 1 extra HP by just summoning him, usually ends up costing golds and a card to negate which is huge in early game.

Regarding Birds Nest, I understand you can’t compare single cards alone, but it just seems like a lot of value when you look at it with a card like Harmony.

One can argue Dark Pact at least takes up a tech slot without providing actual body or damage itself, one less higher tech card in your draw and sometimes those early damages to base can pay off later.

I am a true believer of Codex’s balance and I think people’s reaction to this discussion of OP proves that cards can have different values to each player.

My point is that as a new member of the forum, I ask you experienced players for this balancing efforts towards the next tournament to be reviewed very carefully even if it’s just trying out thing as it can discourage people who are new and do not understand the reason for these changes.

Thanks again for everyone’s warm welcoming and really appreciate your comments.

1 Like

Dark Pact can actually be cheated in with Vandy’s midband, so you can get access to it without spending a tech slot, with the added bonus of being able to use it immediately to try and fetch a key card from the deck (or a newly teched card on a lucky reshuffle). Yeah, you have to exhaust her to do it, but if you can’t otherwise attack because of a troublesome patroller, or if she has readiness from Metamorphosis, the exhaust cost is relatively minor. Also, it can be (and has been) used to deal direct damage to an opponent’s base (usually in the final turn of a game).

2 Likes

@Nekoatl Thanks for commenting on this and I totally agree with you. No doubt it’s a great card maybe it’s one of the cards that need further vetting and maybe someone can help with this as I lack the ability to analyze this statistically but I think there is still a drawback. When Vandy uses her ability to fetch the card, not only 1 gold is spent but also you are adding one more card to your deck which shares the downside of all abilities that add cards to the deck which is less chance of drawing the card you need in later turns. Of course, Dark Pact overcomes this by drawing extra card but I think that it was intended to feel like StimPack that you have to keep injecting and you could pay the cost for overusing it when base is down to like single digit. My argument sounds very hypothetical and if you guys’ point is proven by data, I will think again about this card. Maybe it’s merely a feeling of uneasiness of pining my own base that I have to be okay with.

I’m going to keep writing until I get a heart from @Hobusu :slight_smile:

2 Likes

Sorry @bansa , by bringing up Dark Pact, I shifted the discussion away from your legitimate complaint about Birds’ Nest. I apologize for that.

I completely agree that Birds’ Nest is a very strong card. Its appeal IMO is how consistent and low-risk it is, even relative to other A-grade spells like Bloodlust, Kidnapping, Lich’s Bargain, Temporal Distortion, etc. It’s cheap, there’s no obvious way to play around it, it doesn’t put your base or economy at risk, and you don’t need another card in hand or on board to play it. In these respects I’d say it’s only second to Dark Pact.

However, Birds’ Nest does have some drawbacks. As Shadow_Night_Black pointed out, it’s slow: what you get is 2 evasive damage per turn, starting next turn. This can add up to a lot, but it’s nowhere near the immediate pressure that some other cards can generate.
Moreover, Birds’ Nest has a hard cap: you can’t spam it turn after turn and get an endless stream of cards, or a bigger and bigger army, or whatever unit you want from your codex turn after turn, etc. You get two 1/1 Birds and that’s it.

Granted, you can make up for both of these drawbacks with combo pieces, and Birds’ Nest does have amazing combo potential with stuff like Spartners and Two Step. This is also what sets Birds apart from other early game fliers. But that just means Birds’ Nest is a key component in some strong game plans, not that it’s necessarily too strong as a standalone card.

All that being said, the list of changes EricF proposed here, and which we might test during the next tournament, does include a nerf to Birds’ Nest - basically making it even slower than it is. Another option I could think of would be making the Birds untargetable by Buff spells, similar to Nullcraft, which would limit their combo potential.

4 Likes

@Dreamfire Thank you for your considerate response. I agree with all of your points about Birds Nest. Although it seems unbalanced compared to a card like Harmony, it has it’s own drawbacks. My complaint was more about the fact that Rook has Birds Nest and how difficult to deal with that 1 extra HP on top of that he is equipped with such a high value spell that can give you more value overtime. I know this is baby crying and I really appreciate all of your comments to this discussion that proves the underlying balance of Codex. And that is where my real point is.

I will be straight up honest with you since it looks like I might have already made enemies by stirring up the pot. I am against big shifts that can be created by these balancing list which I think sounds a little excessive. I admire the replayability of Codex without having to constantly issue new cards and modify the gameplay to stay attractive and replayable like other games. Codex is different and there is something in there evolving with all of us. This is in line with @FrozenStorm 's comment about Finesse. No game can be perfect and sounds like we have a consensus on some of the cards like Dark Pack. I respect all of your collective experience and fully trust the judgement that will be made towards upcoming tweaks. Just wanted to share a newcomer’s concern about disrupting the originality of Codex which might discourage some of us. Thank you.

2 Likes

Just realized I got a heart from @Hobusu so I can stop writing now. @zhavier Sorry to pollute this official posting with random argument. Moving forward, I will try to find more appropriate post to write these comments.

2 Likes

In the future, you can click the link icon on a post and click + New Topic to start a new thread that links back to that post.

4 Likes