circle of life into that mimic, too. Can’t be too careful. Attacks with Centaur, maybe rampant growth for even more overpower, then circle of life into a wandering mimic. Or just circle of life a sacrificial gemscout owl or galina you just played.
Last night I played against myself using the build orders EricF gave earlier so I’d be better prepared to teach with them tomorrow (As an aside, it was a “fair” match in that both sides could have looked at the other player’s “recommended build order” anyway and I didn’t look at each side’s new hand until it was their turn). What this really made clear to me is that a lot of my problems stem from forgetting about my “non-hand” options.
So many years of playing other CCGs has taught me that if I don’t have enough board presence I should look to my hand for answers, but that doesn’t necessarily hold true in Codex. After all, later in the game I could spend 6 gold to play and max Argagarg or Calamandra, or even early in the game I could play a hero for 2 gold or build a Tower for 3, but the thought doesn’t cross my mind very often (plus I’m worried about giving my opponent free levels if I summon a Hero). Other problems, like wanting to skip workers more than I should and going down on cards any time I’m in trouble, seem to stem from this root problem, and I can’t think of a way to remind myself about those other options. I guess I just need to play a few games where even if it seems suicidal to do so, I never go down on cards and always hire a worker until I reach 10. Maybe forcing myself not to have other options will be reminder enough? Then again, I might just play more expensive things from hand instead…
[details=Old post about Reference Sheets]
On a happier note, I’ve compiled some of the advice from the forums into reference sheets that I’ve put in my Codexes. There’s one for the Blood Anarchs and one for the Moss Sentinels, and anyone can comment or suggest edits (be careful, though – space is tight, and some of the formatting I used relies on weird tricks). The first page on each is specific info for Red and Green respectively, with an overview of each starting deck taken from @Barrelfish’s Beginner’s Guide to Workers, spec generalizations based on this post by @Zejety, and the build orders from @EricF’s post in this thread. The second page is the same on both, and includes seven points of general advice from @FrozenStorm’s post and @Ryjak’s post in the “Making a strategy guide/tutorial for beginners” thread (speaking of which, I should probably post this there too?), as well as another chunk of @Barrelfish’s Beginner’s Guide to Workers (I figured that since choosing what to worker is so common and so prone to paralyzing new players, it might be worth using half a page to talk about it). Finally, the logo was taken from the graphic design page at sirlin.net, the Hero artwork is from the rulebook, and the cards are from the Codex Card Database.
(Sorry about the number of links and mentions, but I believe in citing sources! Any changes of wording were either an attempt to clarify something or to fit it into the available space.)
My question at this point is whether what I have here is OK, both in terms of content and formatting/presentation, or are there some changes that should be made before I try using them to teach tomorrow? In particular, if the section on workers could be condensed, what would be good to add (and how would you condense that section)? Also, how can I convince my own brain to follow the advice on this thing? [/details]
Any discussion about the reference sheets should go to the new thread.
Can I like @Hobusu’s post more? Mods plz let me like it twice!
Seriously, those are some EXCELLENT sheets! Love the format, love the advice!
I might suggest adding a third “good early worker” to Green, as it would be common enough you wouldn’t have either of those cards in your first hand. My suggestion would be Spore Shambler, as he’s mostly good late game and Forest’s Favor is usually better IMO.
But we as a community NEED to make one of those sheets for EVERY MONO COLOR DECK, and it’d be awesome to have one for the 3-4 most common multi-colors (definitely PPA & Necro Blood Truth, maybe Demon/Necro Strength Growth or Fire Anarchy Growth?) These would be AMAZING to bring to IRL demo days
Thank you so much! I agree on Green needing another early worker, and I can add Spore Shambler (edit: it’s been added, but if someone has a convincing reason otherwise, I can remove it). I just copied from Barrelfish’s guide (linked above), so maybe you should mention that there?
Well, I still only have the Core Set and my print and play Starter Set, so that’s beyond what I can do right now.
It shouldn’t be hard to edit for other mono-colors, at least, but I don’t have a clue what the “recommended build order” would be for any of them. For multicolor, you would probably take out the Starting Deck and Spec Generalizations in favor of describing the reason for putting those specs together. Until I can afford the expansions (and they both come out, of course), I’ll leave that to the rest of the community.
I think producing the same thing for Bashing vs Finess would be very useful.
Sure, I can whip something up later today. I’ll have to think of a recommended build order, but the nice thing about the Starter Set is that it’s simple enough that almost anything can work. Mostly have Bashing tech both Iron Men ASAP and have all the other techs for both players be 2 different cards, and it should work out reasonably well.
This raises a question, though: If I (or someone else) keep making more of these, should they have a dedicated thread?
- Make a separate thread
- Don’t bother
I would post links to everything in a dedicated thread
I just figured out how to make a poll, so I’ve added one to the post above. I think I’ll leave it open over the weekend, just to make sure that everyone who cares has a chance to vote (I know some people are in really different time zones from each other).
I voted for separate threads, but I think as long as you have some sort of index post somewhere it’s fine.
I’ve finished the reference sheet for Bashing. It’s late enough where I live that I’m going to wait to do Finesse, but I’d appreciate feedback on what I have so far. It’s looking like a unanimous vote to have a dedicated thread for these, but I’ll keep posting these here until I make that thread in a day or two, then edit the posts to link to that thread (Also, I said I’d leave the poll open over the weekend, but I don’t think that’s really necessary anymore – I’ll close it once I wake up tomorrow).
Mostly from other feedback, but also my own experience, I would replace Final Smash with Trojan Duck. I don’t see how Troq will ever get to max-band outside of ‘cheating’ options from other decks, or dumping a lot of gold into him.
Against Finess, Final Smash does have a LOT going for it, but I just don’t see Troq ever getting to use it. Maybe double-Duck is Turn 7?
Finally, the formatting is way off on my smartphone, making it difficult to read.
I have always had better luck with Trojan Duck in 1v1 than Final Smash but I would love to see someone run a PbF game where they pull off Final Smash.
Yeah, now that I think about it, Trojan Duck does seem more likely to work. I was basing that on discussion in another thread where they said Final Smash was better, but I’m not sure how they’d keep him alive to use it. I’ll switch turn 5 for double Ducks later (can’t access my computer for a few hours). That said, I’m now wondering if it would be justified to swap any of the units for another spell, if only to reduce dependence on Tech buildings. Any thoughts?
That’s an issue with the mobile version of Google Docs, so it’s out of my control. If all you care about is the content, that should all be there.
Personally I think that bashing needs a different build order for player one and two. Possibly finesse too.
If I’m bashing I’m building tech 2 as soon as reasonable, and that’s sometimes turn three if I manage scavenger and gold float, so I’m teching rhinos in super early.
Also I think rhinos are more important and you should tech them in immediately, but then, I love rhinos.
It does always work for me though…
I think it’s important to have a good ratio of units/spells in your deck. You want to limit the number of dead draws, so it’s probably a good idea to never have five spells in the deck (at least for 1v1).
Also, the content is great; everyone should be able to get past the format. Can Google Docs handle PDF files, or is everything converted to whatever web file format they’re using?
PDF is a great suggestion. Agree that troq shouldn’t use final smash, and that having separate p1/p2 tech trees is probably a good idea
I’d love to, but I don’t know how I’d make space… Everything barely fits as is. If you can find a way to make it work, I’d be happy to add another.
As a reminder, anyone can make comments or suggest edits on the documents themselves, so if you can think of an improvement, go ahead and try it! It’s one of the reasons I used Google Docs in the first place.
I was specifically thinking of you when I added the one that’s there!
I’ll admit that I’ve never used Rhinos (everything else has abilities and stuff!), but I can definitely see their raw stats being quite hard for Finesse to deal with. Once I get the new thread up (which will be after I have a rough draft of Finesse ready), I’d welcome discussion about the specifics of all the build orders.
PDF should be fine for viewing, but I don’t think that I can easily edit it once I’ve made it. Basically, I’d use PDF for a finalized version, but at least for now I’d like to keep it editable.
I think Troq should tech in exactly one Boot in the second set of techs, and not worker any of the starter deck spells.
Conversely, River should grab a Discord, Two Step, and Appel Stomp (in that order, one per turn, starting at either the first or second techs), while workering Bloom and Spark.
Interesting… Though again, I’d appreciate if this discussion could be saved for the new thread (I should be ready to make it in 2-3 hours). We’ve kind of gone off topic from “Strategy for Red vs Green,” haven’t we?
The new thread is up! Please make any comments or suggestions about the reference sheets there from now on.
Back to the original point of the thread, after teaching a couple new players yesterday, I have this weird feeling where I can’t tell how either side is supposed to win in Red vs Green! On the one hand, Green has to deal with not having any haste (except Wandering Mimic and technically Moss Ancient) against an opponent that sometimes is all about haste. That’s a lot of pressure! On the other hand, as one game yesterday clearly demonstrated, if Red gives Green an inch, they can quickly grow out of control… I guess that just means I don’t understand either side very well yet. That might be what I’m liking most about Codex at this point: It’s so hard to even know what optimal play looks like, let alone actually figure out what the best move is in specific situations! Still, I’m hoping to figure out more as I play more. I’m probably going to request a play-by-forum game soon, so I can practice this matchup more without time pressure getting in the way as much.