Awesome, thanks for clearing that up!
Thanks for writing that out so clearly!
It’s kind of elegant how it’s written out, but I don’t think it avoids the complications that sharpobject is mentioning.
For example, casting Boot Camp targeting an illusion you control with Reteller of Truths in play could cause, in the timing that you’re describing, the illusion to be shuffled into the deck before having a chance to be returned to hand.
I think it’s necessary for these graveyard-timing effects to happen as a way of redirecting what happens to the card when it dies or is removed from play as the case may be, using the same time that would normally be used to handle putting the card in the discard pile.
In other words, I think “fast triggers” is not an accurate description of what is happening here. I really would prefer calling it a “death interrupt” or “death redirection” or something like that.
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Good point, I guess it really does need to skip the queue entirely and happen immediately. I would discourage use of “death redirection” because that makes it sound like it prevents the original movement. E.g. in this case, it would make it sound like TD didn’t actually return the unit to hand because Second Chances redirected it back into play instead, which of course, isn’t how this interaction is meant to work. “Death interrupt” seems much more appropriate.
So with the fact that you probably do have to return the card to play before you finish resolving temporal distortion, the focus for understanding this particular interaction is on how temporal distortion decides “if you [have returned something to your hand]”.
One suggestion so far is that it checks the board to find said unit, and is satisfied if doesnt find it, which lead to someone else pointing out the returned unit isn’t recogniseable.
I suggest, as a human enforcing the card’s rules, i remember doing the first step… there’s some switch which is flicked within TD to remember the first step has been done if you like. Sure, the second step is hard to define as a function of purely board state now, but see Necromancer in Black for evidence that that isnt necessary, plus this is a two step card so why not have a little local variable.
And for more evidence that this was how it was intended (altho i understand people agreed this anyway and were just trying to understand how it could work), see rulings on SC, which specificslly say it can return the sacrificed unit for doom grasp (implying it doesnt neuter it).
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The “just remember that it happened” approach makes a lot of sense, and at the same time, remembering which card was returned would provide the information necessary for step 2. This is a far simpler and cleaner approach than trying to extract the information by looking at the board state afterwards.
Yeah most of these cards don’t actually care if the thing succeeds, just that you tried to do it.
Banefire golem similarly still works if second chances returns the sacrificed thing
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Well, the do as much as you can rule allows spells to be cast even when there’s nothing for them to affect.
Looking at the rulings on Temporal Distortion, the criteria appears to be if TD caused a unit to leave play, with no regards to what happens afterwards. Attempting to remove Gilded Glaxx (with gold) doesn’t satisfy the condition, but removing (and thus, destroying) a token does.
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As a point of clarity, the purpose of the TD modal clause, is to prevent you from returning nothing or attempt to return Gilded Glaxx, which won’t actually leave play.
So, with the understanding that the design intent is: Let TD function in the presence of Second Chances but prevent it from functioning targeting Gilded Glaxx with floated gold. That should guide the card wording interpretations.
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Sidenote: I’ve always hated the term “destroying” applied to tokens that have left play. It implies a death where there is no death. Should be trashed.
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Oh neat. So it wouldn’t trigger Bugblatter, for example, to cast Forgotten Fighter on a token.
Correct, it also doesnt trigger patrol death bonuses.
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Hi, probably overthinking it, but does a Polymorphed unit transform back during your upkeep, along with other Upkeep abilities?
The interaction I’m thinking of is with Dothram Horselord - if I can resolve his ability before transforming back an opponent’s unit, Dothram won’t leave my side.
Thanks!
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My guess is that “until next upkeep” means they transform back at the start of your upkeep, whereas the Horselord ability triggers during your upkeep. In other words, Horselord does check to leave. I could well be wrong, though.
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I imagine this is an “active player decides” race condition: similar to if you have a Star Crossed Starlet and something that gives healing, you can choose which happens first.
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This is definitely how I would handle it in a face-to-face game. TBH I think we could fall back on this principle more often than we do here on the forums.
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“until end of turn” means the effect wears off after everything that happens during that turn, including any “End of turn:” triggers, but before everything that happens in the next turn. In other words, these effects end between the end of the end phase of one turn and the start of the tech phase of the next turn. So, it seems consistent that “until the start of your next turn” and “until next upkeep” would similarly slip in between two phases… between end and tech, and between tech and upkeep, respectively. However, that does raise the question of why Polymorph: Squirrel would need to wait until after the tech phase to wear off…
I don’t think it’s necessary to add another phase here. These “until your next upkeep” effects could expire during the upkeep phase easily enough.
Vandy’s maxband’s contrasting language (… “and die at your next upkeep”) makes it clear that Vandy’s maxband effect expires during the upkeep phase. Maybe that indicates a distinction in timing with the “until” effects you’re describing, but I think it’s more likely that the active effect “and die” needs different grammar to work than the more passive description of how an effect expires.
Maybe there are interactions that would justify adding a phase like this, but I’m not currently aware of any.
Hey, qustion regarding armor piercing. If a unit with armor piercing deals damage, is the armor gone or still active for the next attacker? Can a pbr and haunt kill river on sl?
Armor piercing allows combatants to ignore armor, not negate it, so the armor remains intact.
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Okay, looking through the cards, I think I just imagined that “until the start of your next turn” exists. There seems to be only “until end of turn” and “until your next upkeep”. My theory is that “until your next upkeep” is essentially being used as a more concise way to write “until the start of your next turn”, and to make it clear that teching cards should happen before effects expire (perhaps in the spirit of teching cards during your opponents’ turns). This is a relevant distinction in the case of, for example, a unit that is both doomed by Vandy and insured by Insurance Agent with an empty deck, as this timing makes it impossible to avoid shuffling that turn’s teched cards into the deck when the insurance draw triggers a reshuffle. But, I don’t think the intention is to allow players to mix and match between “until your next upkeep” effect expirations and “Upkeep:” triggers, because that’s not how “until end of turn” effect expirations and “End of turn:” triggers interact.
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