I love the way you think.
I’m sorry for being so pedantic about this. I come from a background in Fantasy Flight Games LCGs where they use a very precise and comprehensive “Rules Reference Guide”. 99% of the time rules questions in their games are resolved with e.g. “yes because section 4.1 says X and the definition of Y says Z”. Here there is no rulebook source for these rulings, just forum posts that are full of exceptions and special cases.
The problem is that the rulebook does not say this. I believe you but there is something inherently problematic with these recursive definitions. You can’t define dies as going to your discard pile and simultaneously qualify going to the discard pile as dies.
So to make sure I understand:
A non-token unit or hero being destroyed means it dies.
A token being destroyed also means it dies unless this occurs as the result of the token leaving play.
i.e. If an effect causes a token to be destroyed does it trigger Dies: Do X effects?
More generally, when a card is destroyed does this mean it dies?
Similarly, when a card is sacrificed does this mean it dies?
i.e. any ability which would modify dies using “instead” would apply to both destroyed and sacrificed? (e.x. Justice Juggernaut)
The part of the rulebook that says tokens are destroyed if they leave play is wrong. It has been erratad to “tokens that leave play cease to exist” for anyone who cares about precice wording.
When a unit or hero is destroyed, it dies. The two terms are synonymous.
That’s a good point! This thing used to be able to patrol, but the current ruling is a little confusing.
If you copy Justice Juggernaut with Quince’s Mirror Illusion, I guess it can survive being targeted once.
Sorry, I’d like to make a comprehensive rules document soon™ that should make things easier to know.
For now, you’ll have to trust the people here, in much the same way that I have to trust people on forums to know that if my army unit with Area Effect (2), Area Effect (2), and Area Effect (2) “loses all keywords” then it still has 2 instances of Area Effect and its Area Effect value is still 6.
Destroying a thing causes it to die. Sacrificing a thing causes it to die too! The use of “Destroyed” in the part of the rules talking about tokens that leave play is not a good choice.
I disagree, the statements made in the forum are very rarely anything like an exception or special case. There are clarifying examples, but they are all rooted from a basic interpretation of the text.
To be fair, a lot of rulings are not very possible to derive from the rulebook.
Thanks for this. This has been my exact feeling and frustration. It’s good to know that I’m not crazy and also that some clarification is in the works. While it certainly works to have individual clarifications and examples for each card, it would make playing the game a lot easier if it were possible to derive these explanations directly from the rulebook.
There’s two different purposes for a rulebook. One is to be something that a new player can read and understand how the game works so that they can quickly get to actually playing it. The other is to be a reference to give precise definitions, clarify interactions, etc.
There’s some tension between those two purposes. Often there is a simple, easy-to-understand explanation that covers 95% of cases and a more convoluted and difficult to parse explanation that covers all 100%. Sirlin has said that where there is that tension, he philosophically prefers to optimize for the first purpose over the second.
The result is card text and rulebooks that optimize for the first purpose, and the gaps for the second purpose are filled in by things like the rulings document. In an ideal world the second purpose would be fulfilled by a Technically Precise Rulebook, which was substantially longer than the regular one but gave exact definitions for things like “sacrifice” vs. “destroy”. That sounds like a pain to write, but my hope is that resources like the FAQs at the top of this thread can provide a reasonable approximation.
Yup, I completely understand. If you’re interested, pull up a pdf of FFG’s Game of Thrones 2.0 or Warhammer Conquest “Learn to Play” and “Rules Reference Guide”. These are my gold standard for how to separate out ease of learning to play vs a rigorous framework for the game.
I have a question about bloom. If I use the +1/+1 to cancel a -1/-1 token, can I still keep using bloom on a unit?
“Dies: Do X
When this is put into your discard pile from play, do X.”
That really is correct. Dies is a shorthand that means went to discard from in play.
Things that are in play and then destroyed or sacrificed normally go to the discard pile, so that is the reason that “dies” applies. A hero that tries to go to discard goes to the command zone instead, and it still did trigger “dies”. A token that would leave in-play to go to any zone goes away. “Destroyed” seems an ok word to me. But no matter what word you want to use it’s gone (not “gone” as in going to the discard pile, but rather as in gone from all zones). A token that tried to go from in-play to discard “dies” (and also it’s gone from all zones after that). A token, or anything else, that tries to go from in-play directly to a zone other than discard did not “die”. For example, retuning a unit to your hand; that’s not dying because it’s not in-play -> discard.
If you would put a +1/+1 on a thing with a -1/-1 then those two runes cancel each other out. The card would then have neither of those runes on it. Can you cast Bloom on a card with no runes on it? Yes.
The “rules reference guide” exists, it just wasn’t printed for what I assume are cost, time or space concerns. Specifically, the google sheet “official rulings document” referenced at the top of the thread.
An RRG is not that sort of thing imo
If you manufacture Truth, Reputable Newsman to something else, does his ability return at the end of the turn? Can you pick the number again?
Yes the ability keeps working, no you can’t pick a new number.
I believe the specific reason is that the ability triggers when newsman “arrives”, which basically means “coming into play from another zone”. Manufactured Truth doesn’t make newsman go away and come back. He’s still there the whole time, he’s just not himself for a bit.
From the manual
All card types have arrival fatigue, which means the turn they come under your control, they can’t use abilities that require
exhausting as part of the cost. If they are units or heroes, it means they also can’t attack the turn they come under your
control. If a card has haste though, it CAN attack and use exhaust abilities the turn it comes under you control.
I think I understand the arrival fatigue, but I would like this spelled out explicitly. All card types (units, heroes, spells, buildings, upgrades) have arrival fatigue, right? Of course, the exception is if there is some specific effect that cancels/prevents the arrival fatigue, such as Haste, but otherwise, all cards suffer arrival fatigue. For units and heroes, this means that they can’t attack this turn. For all kinds of cards, if you would have to Exhaust to do some ability, then you can’t do that ability this turn.
Okay so I got that. However, am I right in assuming that effects/abilities of spells, buildings, and upgrades can be used immediately the turn the card comes into play (assuming there’s no cost)?
As a concrete example: It’s the start of my turn. I already had my hero Troq in play. I have The Boot in my hand. I play the card by paying 3 gold and laying The Boot face up in my play area. I use this spell to immediately destroy my opponent’s Nimble Fencer from the Squad Leader slot in her patrol zone. Nimble Fencer dies and goes to her discard pile. Since The Boot spell is a one shot deal, it now goes to my discard pile.
Is all of that correct?
Yeah, spells generally go straight to the discard pile as soon as you resolve their effects.
Arrival fatigue basically means, in practice, you can’t perform any action that involves ta^H^H exhausting a card (i.e. turning it sideways) on the same turn it arrives. Passive effects, to my understanding, come into effect immediately, but effects that require exhausting the card can’t be used until the next turn.
Separate question. Does the taunt effect of the squad leader (and also the “taunt” effect of the patrol zone as a whole) only affect units and heroes when they are attacking?
In other words suppose it’s my turn and suppose my opponent has four units in her patrol zone (including one at Squad Leader) and four units behind her patrol zone and two buildings. Suppose it’s my turn and I have in hand a spell which is able to damage a single one of any of these eight units or two buildings. As my first action, can I freely choose among these ten targets to damage with my spell? Or do I have to hit the Squad Leader?