The only stingers the ability affects are those controlled by the same player that controls the Hive because of the owner vs. controller rule.
3 Likes
With Banefire Golem, when is the “If you did,” clause relevant? The sacrifice is compulsory, including sacrificing the golem itself if it’s your only (non-indestructible) unit, so it seems like the damage to your opponent’s stuff should occur regardless. The only thing I can think of is if a Soul Stone saves the sacrifice, which could be interpreted as trying and failing to sacrifice a unit? Does that stop the damage from occuring? Are there any other situations where the damage is prevented from occuring?
I’ve been looking for ways to clean up Codex’s rules, generally, as I’ve been working on a full re-theme of the game. If I’m changing the names of everything, I want the cards to stand on their own as much as possible without having to reference outside rulings. If any of y’all are inclined to take a look, I’ve tried to make things effectively mechanically identical and I’d love to know if I’ve messed that up anywhere.
3 Likes
Interesting! So that image looks like it’s
- Alliance <-> Flagstone Dominon
- Orcs <-> Moss Sentinels
- Undead <-> Blackhand Scourge, of course
- Night Elves <-> Whitestar Order
- Kabel <-> Vortoss Enclave
- Kartel <-> Blood Anarchs
- Mercenaries / Murlocs <-> Bashing / Finesse
Interesting that Orcs aren’t Blood Anarchs, but mechanically Moss Sentinels do make a bit more sense!
Anyway, I think Soul Stone would stop the damage effect from occurring, yes, since Soul Stone gets removed “instead of” the unit dying. Any other effect I can think of returns the unit after it dies, which wouldn’t stop the damage effect, or stops the unit from being the sacrifice target in the first place (e.g. Gilded Glaxx, anything immortal, Pestering Haunt).
2 Likes
Yup, exactly, I wanted to match the Warcraft flavor to the Codex card effects as closely as I could. I have a card gallery here if pulling up Tabletop Sim is inconvenient.
For Banefire, I think I’ll go with the wording: “Upkeep: Sacrifice a unit. If that unit leaves play, deal 1 damage to each opposing unit, hero, and building.” I could specifically reference soul stone there if it’s the only card effect that applies, but I think this is clear enough. Thanks for the help.
I think Justice Juggernaut is the only other unit that can “try” to die and fail.
2 Likes
Sounds great! You could integrate the current rule changes. They are not perfect but make the game more balanced. (At least the nerfes)
Link to all relevant rule changes
Do you integrate an automted start via script? In the current version you have to copy 5 minutes things before you can start.
I will habe a look at it on the weekend.
2 Likes
Looks pretty awesome to me what you did there! Surely will use it whenever I’m on TS the next time
1 Like
I can’t say I’ve followed these forums close enough to know what’s up with the balance changes. Are they more or less set now? From the linked discussion it seems like they might still be being debated and tweaked.
The mod does have automated setup, yes. If you’re playing mono-color one click does everything. I’ve also automated the draw/discard phase, worker counts, and a few other bits and bobs.
I’ve added a few discussion posts to the Steam Workshop page and I’d love any and all feedback there.
My perspective on the balance changes: It is a bit more balanced vs the original, because it weakens some too strong strategies/cards. Is it balanced? Definetly not and it never will be. Will we achieve better rule changes? Probably yes, but not in the short term. I would put them in.
I like playing on TS, so you will definetly get my feedback. If someone is interested in a test game on Sunday, just give me a note.
Yeah, consider any current balance change lists a work in progress.
2 Likes
Does Ferocity apply to units that you play after Ferocity? It is unclear if it is intended to be giving the abilities to the units you currently have, or if it is a global affect that applies to all of your units for the duration.
Edit: Ah, this has been answered above, it only applies to things you have when you cast it.
1 Like
I’ve posted a significant update to Codex Warcraft. Among other rules cleanup there are now means and components to track any effect that lasts longer than end of turn. Stuff like who you put Elite Training on, what unit your Mirror Illusions are copying, and how much gold you owe to Promise of Payment. As always my goal is to have perfect 1:1 mechanical parity with Codex Classic; if any of y’all rules experts want to take a look I’d love to know about any corner-cases where the new wording changes the outcome. Card Gallery here if Tabletop Sim is inconvenient.
There is one situation I’m aware of where the new rules diverge and it’s obscure enough I’m ok to leave it: It involves detectors in a 3 player FFA game. If a Rampaging Elephant is made invisible by a Vortoss card and attacks a player with a tower and then attacks a player without a detector, in Codex Classic that Elephant would still be invisible for it’s second attack where it would not be in Codex Warcraft.
Ready or Not! might make that less rare than you think.
2 Likes
It’s a tough game to balance. The card interactions can be incredibly complex. Maybe it’s a good thing that you’re doing your own version, since the community here is stuck on some weird complexities with the rules that can’t be cleared up because the people given authority over the rules no longer interact here.
I think the balance changes are coming from a good place, but they’re not tested nearly enough to be considered solid. The demonology nerfs, for example, are beneficial in many matchups, but really restrict the tools to deal with Necromancy’s Lich Bargain rush or Doom Grasp easily sniping Vandy.
I have a personal aversion to the Peace spec. The Garrison feels like a win condition that’s available too early. Blue is weak early to compensate for this, but then that puts on extra pressure to nerf Black because early Blue can’t handle Black. Law spec is mostly ignored, and Truth causes some of the most complex interactions. You might be wise to skip Blue for early implementations and be prepared for significant redesigns for Blue if your goals include balance and clear rules.
Realistically speaking, we just don’t have enough active players to do adequate testing on balance changes. I think balance discussions are for a different thread, though.
1 Like
And how are we going to get more players when we can’t even update codexcarddb?
I doubt that’s the main barrier to people starting to play.
I’m no expert on the game’s balance, and that’s why my goal is to keep Codex Warcraft in parity with Codex Classic. I’m ok with leaving the change I listed above only because it is limited to multiplayer, 1v1 is still mechanically identical to the best of my knowledge.
I’d love to know about any common confusing situations or rules mistakes so that I can try to make things clearer.
How would you suggest a new player learn to play then? I consider myself profoundly naive to consider that I understood how to play the game from reading the rulebook and codexcarddb.
It’s hard for me to recommend a game where the “new player experience” is necessarily failure based on unequal access to information.
Maybe it’s easier in person, where you can get some softer feedback in real time and games are shorter. Here games are maybe a week long, which is a lot of investment to then be like “great, I’m suddenly losing because apparently I had no idea what that card does.” Sure, if you’re learning League of Legends you’re also going to get trashed because you don’t know what an opponent can do. But those matches are 20-45 minutes and there’s resources to figure out what trashed you.
And I also feel bad to be like, is it bad manners to concede? Is it poor sportsmanship to take advantage of my clear ignorance?
But not updating the resources for players to figure out how the game works is some pretty brutal gatekeeping. If there’s no ability to update the resources for players to figure out how the game works it’s a dead game.
I’d like this game not to be dead though.
Here’s some resources I’ve developed to try to figure out the game, with plenty of help from the community :
The Rules in Depth was written in close collaboration with @Nekoatl
I’d be interested in working to putting together a more formal website for these things, I just ran out of energy this year due to moving stress and then covid. I’ll have time off during the holidays so if anyone wants to work with me on these in some fashion let me know.
And I’d appreciate any notes on errors I have made.
1 Like