Yeah, I can understand that illusions and smoker happen fast. That makes sense, and those are specifically constrained to a targeting timing so that’s a very contained and consistent issue.
I’m seeing a claim that seems to say that combat damage triggers are also fast, such that flagstone spy’s trigger would also be fast. This is outside of the targeting timing, and it doesn’t replace other behaviour (I think another category of “fast” triggers might be what I called “interrupts”–for example, graveyard or rambasa twins interrupt death). So, this claim of combat triggers being fast is conflicting with my existing categories of situations where triggers need to be fast.
Also: if flagstone spy’s trigger is fast, what makes it different from Gunpoint Taxman such that the taxman could steal scavenged gold and the spy could not? Both have the wording
“whenever [event that could happen when this deals combat damage] … [steal].”
Thats the thing, I don’t think the spies ability is the problem, i think overpower is the problem. The question is, does the steal get queued by the overpower at a different time than it would be queued by just dealing the damage directly. As I undersatnd it, no, overpower queues it exactly the same, and the spy can steal the scav gold, just as easily as the taxman.
Okay, that logic makes sense to me! I get where you’re coming from, and I agree with you.
In the thread sharpobject seemed to consider the spy’s trigger to be fast, but maybe I’m misreading him. Oh, these guys are using the word “ttriggers” willy nilly when it’s actually a very formal concept!!! It’s almost like they’re considering overpower as a kind of fast trigger, which would explain why they’re confused.
Perhaps a more clear wording of the question at hand would be:
Does overpower damage apply (and triggers from that) before the death of the first target of the attack?
If so the queue from this attack would be:
Spy’s on-damaging-a-base trigger
Scavenger’s on-death trigger
Maybe the wording supports this, but in a practical sense the scavenger is killed before the overpower damage would be applied. Imagine the attack as a movie: the spy stampedes, killing some scavenger that briefly blocks him on the way to ransacking the base. In order for the scavenger to not die before the spy starts ransacking we’d have to imagine some delay, like a mortal wound system that consistently delays the moment of death long enough for an attack to be continued.
Furthermore, in implementing overpower in code, I would have to code in a “like as if the thing was dead” version of the state to decide what targets are valid for overpower without actually killing the first target. Possible to do, but pretty annoying, and could lead to timeline-related UI issues if state-based-actions are involved.
The spy discussion also applies to Cursed Crow overpowering a technician to hit a base, same as GPT killing a scavenger parallels Shadow Blade killing a technician.
I agree that Cursed Crow parallels the spy, and should apply equally.
However, the ruling for Shadow Blade is that it does not have a trigger, but instead the conditional part of the card is processed in normal spell timing. The wording of shadow blade looks the same as gunpoint taxman killing a scavenger, but the timing is not parallel. The discard would happen before the technician draw.
This hasn’t been asked before (kind of shocked?) If I have a Graveyard and a Reteller of Truths in play, and one of my illusion units dies, does it go to my hand or the Graveyard? I think the answer is my hand because Reteller talks about “first time” but I think it’s ambiguous enough it’s worth an ask.
I remember this issue being raised and adjudicated as being active player decides, but I’m having trouble finding the ruling. EDIT: Okay, it wasn’t an official ruling, but it was an assertion that went unchallenged by anyone in a part of this thread where sharpobject was actively posting. Makes sense to me, too, Graveyard and Reteller trigger off the same event, if and when Reteller is eligible to trigger at all. And it has been ruled that once a card has been pulled out of the discard by Graveyard or similar, then other such effects will fizzle when they resolve.
I was watching this game, and at several points one of the players triggers Insurance Agent after playing Judgement Day. I didn’t think that was legal, and I thought there was a ruling saying so, but when I went looking for it, I couldn’t find it. Can you claim insurance if your agent died simultaneously with the insurance target? I guess another way of asking the same thing is, can IA insure himself and claim when he dies?
I have another question, this time prompted by this game. When a unit becomes a copy of another unit, does it keep any “one-time effects” which were previously affecting it (I’m assuming Vandy’s maxband counts as a “one-time effect”). I had assumed that Polymorph: Squirrel worked the same way as copy effects (like Manufactured Truth, or Quince), but we have a ruling stating that P:S removes all “one-time effects” from its target.
@Jadiel Can you quote the ruling you’re referring to? Cause I found the following one from sharpo which seems to contradict it:
Sorry, I should have done that in the earlier post - it’s the first Polymorph: Squirrel ruling from Sirlin:
Transforming into a Squirrel does not count as a new unit entering play. No “arrive” happens here. If the unit had any baggage, such as +1/+1 runes, an ongoing spell such as a Soul Stone or Spirit of the Panda, or damage on it, all of that will still be on it when it Transforms. Though it loses all printed abilities it has and loses all one-time effects that other things might have granted it before the transform, it still benefits from one-time effects that happen to it after the transform and it still benefits from +1/+1 runes that are on it, and attachments such as Spirit of the Panda. — Sirlin, 03/19/16
ETA: I looked at Sharpo’s comment that you referred to, and it sounds like he’s basically saying that Sirlin got it wrong. If that’s correct, then fine (but it might be a good idea to take the ruling off codexcarddb?)
Hmmmm, those seem like different types to me. I thought Ferocity was a global effect which applies to all units you control, regardless of whether they were in play when you played the spell. I would think it definitely applies to a copied/transformed unit. Elite Training seems like a ‘one-time effect’, but I’m not sure why you think it’s categorically different to Vandy’s maxband.
Is the definition of one-time effects anything the ends at the end of the turn (or another preset duration)?
It doesn’t really make narrative sense to me that those effects wouldn’t be continued. It’s not obvious to me that there’s a strong balance-breaking edge case where this matters. Maybe there is though. I wish there was a bit of a why story along with obscure rulings like this.
No, I don’t think so (although I think that would cover 99% of one-time effects). For example, I think Drakk’s maxband is a one-time effect.
My understanding is as follows: Essentially, there are two types of effect. ‘One-time effects’ (I’m not sure this is really a great name for them - I only used it because it was in the original ruling), look at the battlefield when they resolve, and ‘stick to’ any relevant entities (e.g. Ferocity, Discord). I think the effect remains even if the entity no longer satisfies the original criteria (e.g. If you play Ferocity, and then I Kidnapping your unit, does it still have swift strike when I attack with it?). The other type of effect is usually ongoing, and is constantly checking entities on the battlefield to see if it should apply. Most of these effects are obvious (e.g. Moss Ancient, Battle Suits, etc), but some of them are less so. I think Channeled spells should fall into the latter category (Behind the Ferns, Dreamscape), although there’s nothing in the card text which makes this clear. Fox’s Den Students is also unusual in that its lasting effect (“This turn, your ninja units have haste and stealth”) seems to be in the latter category, even though it doesn’t seem semantically different from something like Ferocity.
