Ooo ya he’s right. Justice juggernaut for sure
I agree with you, but I don’t think I ever suggested adding any more pages? The whole idea from day 1 was to have one reference sheet per player. I originally wanted them to be a similar size to the abilities reference cards in Pandánte, but I couldn’t find a way to make it that small with how much information there was.
I’ll see if I can make the cards small enough to fit some strategy underneath. One factor is that I’ll need to see if the final result has recognizable cards at that size, but that’s unlikely to be an issue.
I was wondering about that too (and also why Black went Disease, but that’s clearly a card advantage strategy). Looks like it’s time for more polls?
Which Spec should Blue choose?
- Switch to Peace
- Switch to Truth
- Stick with Law, but swap Guardian for Justice Juggernaut
- Stick with Law and keep Guardian
Edit: Pretend that the 3rd option says “Stick with Law, but use a different build order” and the 4th option says “Stick with Law and keep the build order the same”
I think truth is strictly incorrect for a new player.
There’s a lot of subtlety and nuance that goes into teching truth and it’s also really bad.
I just wanted to make sure every option was accounted for!
That whole blue set is pretty weak, though. I think you want Overeager Cadets instead of Scribe/taxman, and censorship council or Community Service over guardian.
Really what we should do is have a “Beginner’s Guide to Teching” which explains basic Teching concepts and also has example build orders and strategies. Then these reference sheets can be kept as simple as possible
Ideally the guide would have at least 3 build orders per monocolor (one for each tech 2, plus maybe a hero-based build), and include basic strategy discussion, p1 vs p2 differences, etc.
I am even less qualified to make that guide than I was to make the worker one, but if no one else wants to I can take a crack at it over the next couple days.
Yes, this is exactly what we need! Then rather than debating which Spec to focus on, we can make a build order for each of them and simply come to an agreement about which one should end up in each reference sheet. Whoever makes this should feel free to copy the build orders in the guides I’ve finished, if that will save some time.
I will say briefly that in 15 games as blue p2 in black vs blue, law is the only spec I have been able to beat black on, once, and it was a razor thin margin of victory. I have tried multiple games of going rush down with Max oni + peace, multiple games of setting up peace machine, and a few games of truth tech 2 (eyes of the Chancellor is nice against metamorphosis).
I think as p1, blue can tech a little more aggressively (like peace machine might work), and I debated censorship council over gatg, as i actually won with censorship council, but it didn’t end up as useful as I thought gatg would have been (and yes, I know gatg is not the best card). I think I actually won with two scribes as well, but tax collector is nice for messing with black, as black often floats gold mid game when going for metamorphosis.
So tl:dr is i chose the blue build to counter the black build. I would recommend others actually try a game as blue against that black build, I’d be willing to show how oppressive black is in this matchup.
Truth is insanely hard against all the targeting black can bring
Question on build orders: which turn do you skip if you’re p2?
You don’t skip any of them - for the basic guides, you’ll just have 2 more cards than needed as player 2.
That’s what I was afraid of… I know Blue is generally considered the hardest monocolor to use, and also that Black is extremely oppressive, but I was hopeful that we could still make a new player experience for Blue vs Black that doesn’t feel like torture or an execution.
Maybe for the sake of new players, we could make Black’s build somewhat less optimal than we otherwise would? That way the Blue player could experience how their Codex is supposed to run without Black’s constant oppression, and we could leave improving Black’s build as an exercise for the reader. Alternatively, are there some builds that could be made for Black that aren’t really gimped but don’t put so much pressure on Blue?
Yes, there are. I erred on the side of showcasing to the black player the strength of its deck, but I agree that for a “New Player Reference”, I should have erred on the side of “let blue play the game” Unfortunately I’m not as great at coming up with those tech trees, but I can take a stab at it later
My guess would be Black would do the Skeleton-focused thing (still thematic for Black, still fairly strong), and Blue would do a Peace machine?
I’ve just adjusted the Moss Sentinels sheet so there’s now 3 blank lines at the bottom of the first page. If you could try putting some advice there and let me know if you need more space, I’d appreciate it.
Done deal, here’s what I suggested:
General Strategy Advice:
Focus on gaining a gold advantage & powering up Might of Leaf and Claw. Use Basilisk + Ferocity to kill priority targets while blocking w/ wisps in Scavenger / Technician & gaining econ advantage w/ Galina. Bringing Arg out w/ Blooming Elm gives it 2 runes for 2g and no card!
Changed it slightly. Here’s the finished version:
Strategy Advice <-- (This is centered)
Focus on gaining a gold advantage and powering up Might of Leaf and Claw. Use Basilisk + Ferocity to kill priority targets, block with wisps in Scavenger/Technician, and gain an economic advantage with Galina. Bringing Argagarg out gives Blooming Ancient 2 runes for 2 gold and no cards!
Expanded the contractions, then changed wording as needed to get it to fit. This is definitely good advice, though – I don’t have time right now, but I’ll be making room in all the other sheets later. Let’s see whether I can finish adjusting the old sheets before you have the build orders ready for the new ones!
I think it’s good to give a small amount of insight and context into the build. It’s not a complete, full picture of why those techs were chosen or what to do in any situation, but it at least helps frame what the teched cards aim to accomplish in a general sense
I doubt a guide to any part of Codex could be truly exhaustive. It’s just too complex and every part of it connects to multiple other parts in non-trivial ways. That said, having a brief synopsis of the strategy one of these build orders uses is definitely a good idea, so once I have time I’ll be adding space to the others for similar synopses.
Edit: I’ve added space to the Blood Anarchs sheet. @FrozenStorm, do you want to take this one too?
I’m not a really strong red player, and have trouble articulating how to have success with it succinctly. I had a go at it though:
Drakk’s abilities are key to Lobbers trading up & Firebird getting haste to kill tech buildings. Don’t be afraid to dump gold into Zane just to sacrifice him, he can make really big plays! Try to chip away at the opponent’s base each of the first few turns, you can end sooner than you might think.
Again, I rephrased things a bit, but it was pretty minor stuff. Thanks for the advice for our game! (It might be too late to apply some of it, though…)