[Casual] FrozenStorm vs zango

FrozenStorm · August 30, 2021, 7:25pm

Naw no need to fold, we can play it out as it stands, was just curious if I missed something or that might have been a fat draw

Might get into trouble here as I’ve fucked this up a lot in the past as well. I believe it is quasi-immediate, it’s just noted in upkeep from folks to “acknowledge” or confirm it happening.

I know this because you definitely can use peak effects like Lawful Search or Martial Mastery to see a technician draw.

It definitely happens before you tech in new cards, I did that wrong for a long time lol. It also happens after the technician “dies”, however that resolves (usually hits discard pile, then if technician rs draws you’d see that technician in the rs).

Bryce_The_Rice · August 30, 2021, 7:28pm

That’s why I always write it happening before my teching when I layout my turns.
Technician draw is the one not fully async thing about this game, because you can kill a technician then hand peek the new card.

Legion · August 30, 2021, 8:26pm

To further elaborate, the opponent draws for technician on the attacker turn, so you could, in theory, attack technician, have them draw, then play imp, have them discard, then play martial mastery and check how their hand is to decide where to invest your gold (teching up if his hand is dead, Hire units if you can expect a big swing, etc).

zango · August 30, 2021, 9:02pm

you were right about the wrong deck count. A Fencer got lost. If you really are fine with just continuing from here onwards, I’ll just correct it by adding him now to my deck. Is that really fine for you?

@Legion @Bryce_The_Rice : I’m super happy that not “only” @FrozenStorm takes his time to teach me but you as well. A big thanks goes out to all of you!

FrozenStorm · August 30, 2021, 9:15pm

Yep that’s really fine this is for fun, the thin reshuffle may end up affecting the outcome win or loss but I’m not terribly concerned about that. It’s a close enough game that I think closing it out warrants some learnings and fun, and it’s certainly not as if drawing both Lizards wasn’t a possible hand for your previous turn

zango · August 30, 2021, 10:50pm

Edit: fencer stat was one damage short

On man, I didn’t see the possibility of you flying over the anti-air patrollers. That part of the rules was lost from my memory… I probably should have teched a flyer as well, if I really wanted to go the defense route, which I don’t want to
Next time i’ll think of that and at least put guide on Scavenger. That one gold really can make all the difference.

Game 3 P2T7

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Maestro
Star-Crossed Starlet

STARTING HAND
Graveyard (3hp)
Thieving Imp (2/2)
Sacrifice the Weak
Pestering Haunt (1/1)
Nimble Fencer (2/3)
Soul Stone (technician draw)
Dark Pact (skeleton draw)
Dark Pact (DP draw)
Two Step (DP draw)

WORKERS
Poisonblade Rogue
Skeletal Archery
Summon Skeletons
Deteriorate

NextHand

Two Step
Skeleton Javelineer (1/1, jav rune)
Dark Pact
Jandra, the Negator (3/3, when dies…)
Nimble Fencer

Tech 2 card(s)
draw 1 from Technician
Get Paid - ($9)
Skel - ($8)
draw card from skeleton
Vandy - ($6)
DP my base
Fencer - ($4)
River - ($2)
Two Step Fencer+Lizard - ($0)
Lizard kills SL, takes 5
Fencer kills Geiger, takes 3, you draw, Levels to River
Haunt
Garth suicides into Vir, Levels to Vandy

Float ($0)
Discard 5, draw 4, reshuffle, draw 1

Board Info:
In Patrol:

Squad Leader: River (2/4 lvl3)
Elite:
Scavenger:
Technician: Vandy (3/4 lvl3)
Lookout:

In Play:

Leaping Lizard(5/2, antiair, dancing)
Two Step (Fencer+Lizard)
Pestering Haunt (1/1)
Nimble Fencer (4/2, dancing)

Buildings:

Base HP: 13
Tech I HP: 5
Tech II HP: 5 (Finesse)
Heroes’ Hall HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

Hand: 5
Deck: 9
Disc: 0

Gold:

Gold: 0
Workers: 9

Thoughts

So I really need to kill Max, as I must not let your flyers gain haste again.
Drawing form another Skeleton draws from 7 cards in deck, with 2x DP and 2x Two Step and 3 dead cards in this situation. With Two Step (directly or through DP), I can wipe his board (except for nullcraft, including a sacrifice of Garth). I then have dancing Fencer+Lizard (both of which die if the dance ends) a haunt, and a maxed River+Imp against Nullcraft+3Cards or midband Vandy+midband River againt Nullcraft+4Cards.

Probably my reflex to trade Garth against Vir is wrong, but keeping your hand size down without the option to peek/swap/play from deck is promising in my eyes and not having non-hero defense against a deck that probably has teched origin story is equal to sacrifing a hero so that he can make use of the gold level up.

If I whiff on the skeleton draw, I’ll probably go Vandy+Soul Stone on lizard+Imp+Worker.

So Skel-Draw+DP gave me the two step. The only question now is: do I trade Garth for Vir? With 4 cards in hand, Vir lets you play from deck+swap so that you have 6 cards to choose from and especially your possibility to put the next voidstar/now back on top of your deck is something I should rid you of, so I’m going for the trade.

About my tech choices: I didn’t think too much about it, I just went for the most aggro line I saw. I probably should have included a meta, but I didn’t think of that before my Skeleton draw, so it was too late. Now it is likely that the current cycle will be my last one, so I’m not putting too high hopes into my next tech choices mattering a lot.

In the end a Prynn maxband effect, an undo or an origin story is all it takes for my dance partners to die, which leaves me defenseless against the next void star, unless I’m super lucky with my DP draw, in case I’m willing to take more base damage…

FrozenStorm · August 31, 2021, 1:39am

Lol indeed, fliers do as they pleases

Game 3 Player 1 Turn 8

P1 Purple vs P2 Nightmare

Starting Hand

Void Star
Origin Story
Promise of Payment
Xenostalker (techn)

Events of Turn:

Upkeep:

Get Gold (10+1gold)
draw 1 techn
no techs

All Teched Cards

Nebula x2
Promise of Payment, Ready or Not
Xenostalker, Origin Story
Void Star, Now!
Void Star, Stewardess of the Undone
Gilded Glaxx, Now!

Main:

Void Star (6)
Prynn (4)
Origin Story River, dancing stops, Fencer and Lizard lose buff and die (1)
Nullcraft kills Pestering Haunt

Workers

Fading Argonaut, Temporal Research, Plasmodium, Tinkerer, Forgotten Fighter, Time Spiral

Patrol as below
Discard 2 Draw 4

Board Info:

Buildings:

Base HP: 18
Tech1 HP: 5
Tech2 HP: 5 FUTURE
Tower HP: 4

In Patrol:

Squad Leader: Prynn (1/3a lvl 1)
Elite:
Scavenger:
Technician:
Lookout:

In Play:

Hardened Mox (trashed)
Battle Suits
Nullcraft (1/1)
Void Star (5/4)

Economy Info:

Cards:

Hand: 4
Deck: 0
Disc: 8

Gold:

Gold: 1
Workers: 10

End of Turn Hand

Now!
Now!
Neo Plexus
Ready or Not

End of Turn Discard

My Thoughts

Origin Story, you beautiful tale you! Perfect timing to eliminate those dancing fools, tower’s getting some work done here, would have liked to have drawn a Now! here but at least I didn’t draw Ready or Not, might be able to finish with it next turn

zango · August 31, 2021, 7:14am

You’re almost there…

Game 3 P2T8

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Metamorphosis
Metamorphosis

STARTING HAND
Skeleton Javelineer (1/1, jav rune)
Nimble Fencer
Two Step
Jandra, the Negator (3/3, when dies…)
Dark Pact
Soul Stone (DP)
Star-Crossed Starlet (DP)

WORKERS
Poisonblade Rogue
Skeletal Archery
Summon Skeletons
Deteriorate

NextHand

Maestro
Sacrifice the Weak
Leaping Lizard (3/5, antiair)
Grounded Guide (4/4)

Discard

Dark Pact
Leaping Lizard(5/2, antiair, dancing)
Two Step (Fencer+Lizard)
Pestering Haunt (1/1)
Nimble Fencer (4/2, dancing)
Soul Stone
Jandra, the Negator (3/3, when dies…)
Metamorphosis
Metamorphosis

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($9)
DP my base to a close to lethal 11 (had to)
River - ($7)
fencer - ($5)
Starlet - ($3)
two step (fencer+starlet) - ($1)
jav - ($0)
fencer kills SL, takes 2, levels to River
starlet breaks tech 2, two to your base, takes 1
vandy deals 3 to your base, takes 1

Float ($0)
Discard 2, draw 4

Board Info:
In Patrol:

Squad Leader: Skeleton Javelineer (1/1a, jav rune)
Elite:
Scavenger:
Technician: River (2/4 lvl3)
Lookout:

In Play:

Vandy (3/3 lvl3)
Nimble Fencer (4/3, dancing)
Star-Crossed Starlet (6/3, dancing)
Two Step (fencer+starlet)

Buildings:

Base HP: 11
Tech I HP: 5
Tech II HP: 5 (Finesse)
Heroes’ Hall HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

Hand: 4
Deck: 3
Disc: 9

Gold:

Gold: 0
Workers: 9

Thoughts

Game over for me… But fun it was! Felt way less hopeless! Yes, you had all the right answers at the right time, didn’t feel like you whiffed at least once, but that’s probably what experience is for
Definitely well played on your side!

Let’s see how you play this out. I’d probably kill river with the star, overpower to base and nullcraft kill the fencer. That way you’re safe and next turn it’s lethal, whatever heros and/or cards you play from hand…

FrozenStorm · August 31, 2021, 12:06pm

I have lethal just with flyers and Geiger then; power up void star, it and nullcraft hit your base to 1hp, Geiger maxband flickers nullcraft and it finishes.

I also have ready or not so powered up void star was gonna have lethal regardless though

GGWP, your turn to go first! I can read your thoughts and techs later, if you have any specific questions I’m happy to answer

zango · August 31, 2021, 1:19pm

Well that game was some serious fun paired with important learnings!
GG & well played!

I’ll definitely open up another game soon.

One major point I kept struggling with was the repeated worker skipping. Do you have some rules of thumb or thought lines what are the major points to reflect about the decision when a (repeated) worker skipping is worth it?

FrozenStorm · August 31, 2021, 1:48pm

My general rules of thumb are:

Don’t worry too much about skipping workers once you get to 8 workers; game will likely end soon anyway, cards are valuable.
Skipping a worker with 7 should be a rare occasion, it should basically never be done at 6 or fewer
It’s generally worth it if you’re preventing your opponent’s win condition, especially if you feel they are on a “fat draw” hand where they are counting on laying an important ultimate / tech 2 that turn.
It’s generally worth it if you’re overwhelming for board control (you can repeatedly clear patrol zone on even or advantageous trades)
If you need a critical card draw and workering would reduce your odds > 20-25% of getting that card, or change your cycling to make future draws unfavorable, it’s worth it to skip the worker.
If there’s a strong chance tech bloat will sink a late-game reshuffle draw, think carefully about skipping workers and consider if a short-term low hand count is worth a later reshuffle.
If there’s a good chance a game will go later than turn 7, you should work towards 10 workers to prevent excessive deck bloat.

I kinda just made those up but those feel like about what my considerations are. I’m sure someone else has written it up better in previous strategy discussions, use the forum search to seek it out, I’ll see if I can find anything as well.

For your specific situation, since you have Dark Pact and great low-cost options generally, I think your worker skipping was totally fine. Nightmare succeeds on constant pressure, you tripped a little relying too heavily on Jandra and Graveyard and not commanding the board earlier (and not teching up sooner) but otherwise the instinct was right.

FrozenStorm · August 31, 2021, 5:26pm

For a little more context, early maxband-ing Rook and Onimaru are basically the only situations where I’ve seen skipping a worker at 6 or fewer have any success. In certain matchups where there isn’t a strong hero counter-measure, Oni and Rook ultimates can be permanent lockdown into base death.

Orpal, Vandy, Setsuki, Calamandra and maybe Midori can pull this off to a lesser extent, maybe Arg or Drakk, but for the most part skipping workers that early is just going to turn into too much of a gold disadvantage.

Bryce_The_Rice · August 31, 2021, 5:42pm

You can play mono red at 6 workers but you need a really good start

zango · August 31, 2021, 5:51pm

Thanks a lot for your replies!!

Now let’s come to game 4: GL&HF!

Edit: no tech 1 with only 5 workers

Game4 P1T1

StartingHand Workers

STARTING HAND
Poisonblade Rogue
Jandra, the Negator
Thieving Imp
Deteriorate
Graveyard

WORKERS
Jandra, the Negator

NextHand

Pestering Haunt
Sacrifice the Weak
Skeleton Javelineer
Summon Skeletons
Skeletal Archery

Discard

Poisonblade Rogue
Deteriorate
Graveyard
Thieving Imp

Tech 0 card(s)
Get Paid - ($4)
Worker - ($3)
vandy - ($1)

Float ($1)
Discard 4, draw 5

Board Info:
In Patrol:

Squad Leader: vandy (2/3, lvl1)
Elite:
Scavenger:
Technician:
Lookout:

In Play:
*

Buildings:

Base HP: 20

Economy Info:
Cards:

Hand: 5
Deck: 0
Disc: 4

Gold:

Gold: 0
Workers: 5

Thoughts

No haunt, no jav, but the not yet wanted deteriorate… That’s a bummer. I’m again inclined to play the imp, but I took my learnings

I was shortly inclined to play Jandra or rouge, but I believe after the discussions that vandy is against purple the strictly better opener, as neo/Fargo in SL or elite, respectively are a good counter against that.

Legion · August 31, 2021, 6:20pm

what about early maxb sets? I’ve seen it works along with FDS.

FrozenStorm · August 31, 2021, 6:35pm

Yeah not saying others can’t make it happen, Setsuki Drakk and Orpal perhaps are a tier of their own on early worker skip rushdown. Has to be against a deck lacking weanie removal for Sets and Drakk though, and Orpal still needs to get to 8 gold to Death and Decay

FrozenStorm · August 31, 2021, 6:41pm

You gotta have 6 workers to make that tech 1 mate I’ll assume you floated the gold, if you need to make changes no problem

Game 4 Player 2 Turn 1

P2 Purple vs P1 Nightmare

Starting Hand

Neo Plexus
Forgotten Fighter
Tinkerer
Nullcraft
Fading Argonaut

Events of Turn:

Upkeep:

Get Gold (5)
Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)

All Teched Cards

Main:

Fading Argonaut (3)
Nullcraft pings your base to 19 (1)
Worker (0)

Workers

Forgotten Fighter

Patrol as below
Discard 2 Draw 4

Board Info:

Buildings:

Base HP: 20

In Patrol:

Squad Leader:
Elite:
Scavenger:
Technician: Fading Argonaut (2/3 fade 3)
Lookout:

In Play:

Nullcraft (1/1)

Economy Info:

Cards:

Hand: 4
Deck: 1
Disc: 2

Gold:

Gold: 0
Workers: 6

End of Turn Hand

Plasmodium
Temporal Research
Hardened Mox
Time Spiral

End of Turn Discard

My Thoughts

Lucked out a little last game I think, Zango’s got the aggro mindset down a little better now, gonna be tougher to keep board presence. We’ll see how we fare!

zango · August 31, 2021, 7:38pm

Edit: forgot to pay for jav

Game4 P1T2

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Dark Pact
Nimble Fencer

STARTING HAND
Pestering Haunt
Skeletal Archery
Skeleton Javelineer
Summon Skeletons
Sacrifice the Weak

WORKERS
Jandra, the Negator
Summon Skeletons

NextHand

Poisonblade Rogue
Skeletal Archery
Dark Pact
Nimble Fencer

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + floating - ($6)
Worker - ($5)
tech 1 - ($4)
StW kills nullcraft - ($2)
Jav - ($1)

Float ($1)
Discard 2, reshuffle, draw 4

Board Info:
In Patrol:

Squad Leader:
Elite:
Scavenger:
Technician: Skeleton Javelineer 1/1, jav rune)
Lookout:

In Play:

vandy (2/3, lvl1)

Buildings:

Base HP: 19
Tech I HP: 5

Economy Info:
Cards:

Hand: 4
Deck: 5
Disc: 0

Gold:

Gold: 1
Workers: 6

Thoughts

So what do I have to expect this game?
First of all: I would be really surprised if he didn’t go for present tech this time. Let’s see how to answer that…

I’ll trade his nullcraft with StW for the same amount of gold and pass on the suboptimal Fargo kill. He can kill vandy with suits+FF but then has to skip the worker & tech 1. That’s fine for me.

The harder question is: do I play the haunt or am I taking the extra card draw? I think I’ll go for the latter. @anybody: please comment if that is not aggro enough for this matchup!

With my tech choices: I’ll stick to a single DP, but I’m not sold on the fencer, but I really think that’s my best choice for now, “unfortunately”…

I’ll worker the summon skeletons instead of archery, as the latter might come in handy against nullcraft somewhen later.

FrozenStorm · September 1, 2021, 2:41am

On mobile, will edit full turn in tomorrow, but it’ll be mox + tech 1 for me if that helps you think about your next turn

zango · September 1, 2021, 9:51am

How are you patrolling?