I’ll scoop to that! Had to take the coin flip no Gryphon draw (probably worse than a coin flip) GG WP!
GG WP. I’m feeling fairly confident that this set of Black nerfs went too far, and if you feel the same, I propose we cut this set short at 8 games rather than 10. If you’d rather play it out, here’s my T1:
P1T1
StartingHand Workers
STARTING HAND
Jail
Building Inspector
Manufactured Truth
Bluecoat Musketeer
Porkhand Magistrate
WORKERS
Jail
NextHand
Traffic Director
Lawful Search
Reputable Newsman
Spectral Aven
Manufactured Truth
Discard
Porkhand Magistrate
Bluecoat Musketeer
Tech 0 card(s)
Get Paid - ($4)
Worker - ($3)
Building Inspector - ($2)
Bigby Hayes - ($0)
Float ($0)
Stash 1, Discard 2, draw 4
Board Info:
In Patrol:
-
Squad Leader: L1 Bigby Hayes (2/3A) -
Elite: -
Scavenger: Building Inspector (1/1) $1 tax -
Technician: -
Lookout:
Squad Leader: L1 Bigby Hayes (2/3A)
Elite:
Scavenger: Building Inspector (1/1) $1 tax
Technician:
Lookout:Buildings:
-
Base HP: 20
Base HP: 20Economy Info:
Cards:
- Hand: 5
- Deck: 1
- Disc: 2
Gold:
- Gold: 0
- Workers: 5
Thoughts
I’m kind of tempted to patrol the Inspector as Lookout in hopes of making it psychologically less appealing to Deteriorate him, but Scavenger is the mathematically superior choice, both because it also provides its benefit to StW and because gold is more scarce for P1 than P2.
Words I didn’t think I’d see in this thread
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I mean, I think this matchup is more balanced than Blue vs. standard Black, but at this point I feel like I have an advantage. And if I feel like I have an advantage as standard Blue, I worry about how this version would fare against other monocolors against which standard Black doesn’t have the same dominant track record. Well, more specifically, I think Vandy was nerfed too hard… I’m still fairly confident about the starter adjustments.
3 Likes
I was initially going to say “I don’t feel like you have a clear advantage” but I sat on it and combined with the argument you’re making about how if this feels blue favored, black’s in trouble in other monos, I can kind of agree that maybe this was a bit over the top.
I’ve lost track at this point, what’s the game score in this set?
G1 P1 Black wins T6; Meta still threatening, discard still hard from blue
G2 P1 Black wins T10; T2 Demonz buys space for DnD
G3 P2 Blue wins T7; Gryphons come out after lack of T2 Demonz pressure
G4 P1 Black wins T7; Vandy + Skeleton swarm overwhelm the board
G5 P2 Blue wins T9; Mind Control buys time for Truth T3
G6 P1 Blue wins T8; Garrison machine overpowers Aboms
G7 P2 Black wins T8; Orpal and Garth maxband tag team for a DnD win
G8 P1 Blue wins T7; Gryphon draw ends a tight one
So 4-4 so far, not so bad! The changes really did target what was junky unfair in the starter deck + Vandy pressure, so I wouldn’t say I think black is garbage now.
Idk I’m gonna sleep on this, I think we oughtta play it out but I do agree Vandy feels a little neutered. The starter deck changes are already a hit to her more than other heroes b/c of the nature of their aiding her pressure, so maybe we laid it on a little thick w/ the Dark Pact, Meta and Sparkshot changes. I think the extra level on midband hurts the most, but also feels like it ought to stay, and DP just needs a nerf in general. I’m not sure giving the Sparkshot and +2/2 meta back really makes a huge difference, but it does at least feel like they can stay.
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I was going to suggest reverting her spells and her level scaling, but leaving her abilities as modified. Taking your read on it into consideration, I think either approach would work, or alternately toning down her stat scaling would be another option. Comparing her to Calamandra, the only other hero with such efficient stat growth, Vandy has an early game advantage in that her starter ability is free to use, piles on extra damage, and can’t be countered by building a Tower. Removing sparkshot brings her below Calamandra in terms of combat threat, leaving her spell fetch as her primary ability… but aside from already being more expensive than teching in a spell to play it, we’ve further impacted the ability by the more expensive midband and nerfing half of her spells. In hindsight, I think she was probably just a little overpowered and the $0 Haunt and Deteriorate made her sparkshot way harder to deal with, but without them, any little nudge would probably be enough to bring her in line. I even thought going into this set that so many nerfs to her was probably overkill, but figured it was better to overshoot and scale back if needed than undershoot and not have a good grasp of how much farther we should go.
I don’t take the 4-4 win rate at face value in this case. The first two games, I struggled because I was essentially playing against standard Black through habit, in other words, I was playing as though I was cornered right out the gate instead of balancing threats and defense. Once I grew comfortable integrating strategies I’d previously ruled out as inadequately efficient, the only games I lost were those where I experimented with Law spec, which is by far the branch of my codex I have the least practical experience with (aside from some gimmicky multicolor strategies with Insurance Agent).
I’m totally game to keep going if you want; I’ve been enjoying the chance to experiment with strategies that I’ve long thought would be cool, but just didn’t seem efficient enough to be competitive against Black. But, I suggested expanding this set because it seemed so different that I thought it would be harder than usual to adjust to the changes and get a good read on the matchup, and I feel like I accomplished that adjustment during those first two games, so I didn’t want to drag you through an extra two without confirming there’s still valuable insight to be gained from them, especially after considering that we’ve only been approaching this rebalancing effort from the perspective of nerfing Black and without testing those nerfs against other colors.
3 Likes
Exciting as it is to see Blue and Black meet on an even keel like this, I agree with the current balance possibly being too much. From my perspective, the purpose of balance changes here should not be to make Blue vs. Black even, it should be to make the general balance between decks even enough to make monocolour tournaments on the forum viable, so Blue vs. Black being a close match is probably too far. This is something that’s difficult to judge off of a single player-pair, though.
My question for Nekoatl and FrozenStorm is whether this version is close enough that it could be used for an experimental mono-colour tournament to see how much it skews things. Perhaps it nerfs Black too much, but is it close enough to be worth checking across the community, plus anyone who would play if there was a mono-colour tournament available?
My feeling is that this change list is too severe and should be toned down before modified Black gets pitted against other colors, but that’s just from my perspective. I don’t want to say that for sure unless Frozen agrees with my take, and I don’t want to rush that decision, especially with the CAWS tournament still rolling along.
2 Likes
Yeah I haven’t had the time to properly ruminate on where I feel this is at. I don’t necessarily feel that it’s too far, but part of me does think the changes should be scaled back a little. The thing I’m struggling with most is what we should drop from the changes, it whether it might be better to make different changes.
Vandy as P2 feels really hard with this configuration, but somehow as P1 she still feels similar to normal black
4 Likes
It seems like it might be a good idea to do a series of quick one off games against other colors to see if Black gets chumped hard by anything. I’m willing to try Red or White, or even take the Black against someone.
1 Like
Okay @Nekoatl after considering more, how do you think this would work as a scale-back of the current nerfs:
- Give Vandy regular levels back (1/3/5), but keep the sparkshot removal and resist topband
- Give Meta back the +2/2
- Make Vandy’s maxband auto apply to “weakest” (same as StW, lowest tech, tiebreakers least attack then active player’s choice), not targeting, and applicable on both player’s turns as a result (so it could be used against you).
- Maybe in conjunction w/ #3, make Haunt cost 0 again. He’s now a bit of a liability for that maxband, as he’s gonna soak the “buff” you might otherwise want to give to an Imp or Bone Collector
That last one feels, to me, like a great nerf to Black vs Blue specifically without hitting Black vs Others as much (we’re giving Vandy back her combat-heavy level breaks, seems okay to make this nerf instead).
I think that’d probably have put this matchup closer to 7-3 or 6-4 Black, what about you?
I agree with 1 and 2, disagree with 4, and don’t really know what to make of 3.
I still remain skeptical of any change list that leaves Haunt at $0, and while I agree the Haunt would make use of this modified Vandy maxband more awkward, I don’t see that as enough of a drawback to offset the general pressure that $0 Haunt brings to the table, and especially to this matchup in particular, especially considering that it’s easy to kill off the Haunt during Black’s turn by simply having it attack anything with an attack value, and if triggered off-turn the opponent would often prefer it to affect something other than the Haunt anyway, as that something would die to the dooming effect before Black would have an opportunity to attack with it.
With respect to Black vs. Blue (well, moreso Truth than general Blue) specifically, the targeting feature of Vandy’s maxband is kind of a double edged sword, potentially advantaging either player depending on circumstances. It at times favors Black in that it can be used to immediately dispose of an Illusion if Macciatus isn’t in play, but at other times it advantages Blue in that key units can be protected from it by using Spectral Flagbearers and Eyes of the Chancellor, and even more effectively if the Flagbearers are supported by Macciatus and/or Reteller of Truths.
The other aspects of the ability rework seem like they would make it more difficult to use effectively and more of a liability for Black against all colors, in particular considering how it kind of overlaps the various Necromancy-themed cards that affect weakest units, and how Black, Purple, and White have significant protections against unit targeting, and to a much lesser degree Green. It’s an interesting idea, and I’m game to try it if you want, but I think its effects would be significant and difficult to predict, so I don’t want to speculate on what kind of win rates would result from it. Well, Vandy’s maxband is already pretty wacky compared to other heroes, but I don’t really see it as needing a nerf as long as Black isn’t otherwise so overpowered that it can easily clear away opposing units before triggering it.
@Nekoatl yea that resonates with me, though I also sort of feel like what makes Vandy so good right now is she gets to have things both ways; be a terror of offense (not totally unique to her, Grave and Cala and Zane are also scary AF to be against as P2, and Oni and Rook to a lesser extent) AND STILL get to make big tech breaks while trading efficiently AND leverage meta (along with Garth or Orpal) to make both hero and unit big threats.
@Hobusu @charnel_mouse @CarpeGuitarrem I know you three have been (off and on) following this thread as well, I’m curious for more perspectives.
One other thing I thought about: have Meta not maxband the other heroes it affects. The +2/2 invis readiness could still be worth 6 gold (maybe bump it down to 5) if you’re not also getting free Garth fetches or Orpal -1/1 chains?
I’m trying to solve for how to get Vandy back to 1/3/5 level breaks but still have that be fair, as combined w/ all the other gold increases that one extra level made a really big difference IMO.
Maybe we should try a quick pair of games with $1 Haunt/Deteriorate and Vandy at 1/3/5 with resist moved up to replace sparkshot, but all other cards as printed? My hunch is that should still feel pretty close to balanced, because as you mentioned, her efficiency is a big part of how oppressive she is, which I think largely comes from how efficient the $0 Haunt and Deteriorate are and how well they synergize with her aggressive stats and sparkshot ability. If my hunch is wrong, we can still experiment with other nerfs, but if it’s right, we might be able to save ourselves quite a bit of effort, no?
2 Likes
So Dark Pact stays at 0?
Part of me thinks that’s a non starter, but you are right that part of why that’s so nuts is having haunt and det be free
I’m down to play a few games paired back to that
2 Likes
I don’t think I’ve got enough experience with Black to give a strong opinion. Still, Nekoatl’s proposal looks reasonable to me. I’ve usually seen Metamorphosis come off the back of a strong early game, so concentrate on stuff that affects the early game: namely, that Black + Vandy have strong, aggressive answers to most things even before tech choices cycle in. Vandy’s sparkshot, Pestering Haunt, Deteriorate, and Sacrifice the Weak often make not getting blown out early a gamble on what Black has drawn on Turn 2. Dark Pact, Soul Stone, and Shadow Blade accelerate what’s already there.
The Metamorphosis idea sounds interesting if that doesn’t work out, though. Garth can break Tech buildings again, but he doesn’t immediately compensate for Metamorphosis’s drawback by fetching a unit. It might indirectly be more on-flavour for Demonology, since sacrificing your units is more of a real tradeoff.
3 Likes
Alternate nerf would be to have Metamorph not grant invisibility (or only grant it this turn/ until your next turn)
That would make it an efficient way to get two huge beaters & a Garth trigger, but it wouldn’t lead to checkmate situations.
1 Like
I kinda like Invis until next turn, again maybe at 5g instead of 6. Still makes it a tech-breaker option but doesn’t mandate the opponent keep a tower up the rest of the game, which is a big part of that checkmate (Do I spend the money on a tower and not have enough left to defend the tower? Or do I skip the tower and just let Vandy have her way with me?)
Anyway I can start a game tomorrow neko, or if you just want to pick up the game you started awhile back we can do that too
2 Likes
Removing perma-invisibility would definitely reduce the threat of Meta, but that would benefit Blue less than any other color, because Blue has the best answer to perma-invisibility (Eyes of the Chancellor). Of course, when Shrine of Forbidden Knowledge allows Demon heroes to bypass unit patrollers completely, Tower or no, you pretty much need to spam Free Speech to remove unstoppable regardless of whether or not they also have invisibility, and even without the Shrine or Meta, for various reasons you need to spam Speech if maxband Orpal is on the field, which also removes invisibility, so… yeah, less helpful to Blue than to other colors.
Picking up from that T1 is fine with me. I wouldn’t play any differently between these two nerf sets.
2 Likes
I also concur that the meta morph is usually good in that it is part of a two prong assault off the back of a good early game (i.e. having to defend against both teching / meta is very difficult without board control, and black is very good at early board control). I also think that the small nerfs to the early game/starter cards are going to have far larger impact into the power level of cards like meta then expected
2 Likes