Balance Patch 2.1

Codex
14

I think these are both fairly elegant fixes for Vandy and Garrison.

By far Vandy’s most obnoxious quality is that she adds a reliable game-warping meta threat to any deck with no opportunity cost. IMO this is the main reason she is so dominant in the meta. It’s an absolute no-brainer to choose her over other beefy/cheap heroes.

The Garrison nerf is great in that it doesn’t affect mono-blue at all. The main issue will (presumably) be how it interacts with abilities/effects that grant haste to units on arrival or in play e.g. Drakk maxband, Nimble Fencer, Fox’s Den Students. I presume we would be wanting to allow those combos to work as normal, since we would want to reward non-broken combos?

If we were trying to Sirlin-style the text it would be something like:

Whenever you play a unit without haste from your hand, draw a card.

But I think this needs the printed vs gained ambiguity clarified. The following sounds much clunkier but is clear on how it should work:

Whenever you play a unit without printed haste from your hand, draw a card.

Of much less importance than its effect on balance, I think this change also makes sense for an actual army Garrison:

  • Its hard to encourage recruitment if its known your new recruits are instantly meatgrindered
  • The bureaucracy of signing up means you can’t immediately join the front lines
  • You need to have recruits stick around to help with further recruitment
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15

I love the flavor justification here @thehug0naut. I disagree w/ the printed distinction though, it’s fine for Drakk maxband and Fencer buffs to be nerfed as well, there’s still plenty of room for Garrison to kick butt without those things gaining haste also drawing cards.

The harsher nerf would be eliminating haste all together, like “Whenever you play a unit from hand, draw a card. Your units can no longer have the Haste ability”

Agree 100% on Vandy btw. She might even need a counter buff for losing the meta fetch? Give back the resist or reduce the Meta cost to 5 maybe? Probably not lol :slight_smile:

So let’s start getting a running list together:

Running proposal for “Forum Standard” Rules Addenda v 2.2 (CAPS23 Edition)

In addition to the 2.1 changes

Nerfs
Vandy Midband changes to “①, :arrow_heading_down:, Discard a card → Fetch any non-ultimate Demonology spell from your codex, reveal it, then put it in your hand.”
Flagstone Garrison Ability changes to " Whenever you play a unit without haste from your hand, draw a card."
Buffs
Jail Cost reduced to 2
General’s Hammer Cost reduced to 2

What else? Anyone want more Troq buffs? Thoughts on reverting any 2.1 changes that seem like overkill in hindsight? (Battle Suits specifically I kinda miss, but maybe that’s just me. It did still see quite a bit of play)

3 Likes
16

I am firmly against jail going to 2. I think if you play some matches with it you will understand why very quickly

Also perhaps Lich’s Bargain should only be 5 damage, but it’s hard to gauge because no-one has played it since the changes.

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Good suggestions!

I like the meta one. I anway always thought that this was strange because similar things (Jurisdiction or the dragon) are always excluding ultimate spells. I would not give her anything back, still the best hero…

I like frozen’s second garrison’s suggestions more. You can draw but lose haste. Then this strategy can still be played but is much weaker, especially without meta thread. If you are not allowed to draw I think it is unplayable.

Bs nerf is completely independend from garrison and I think it must stay. There are several strategies to utilize this one. I played some in a test game against dreamfire.

1 Like
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Regarding Troq buffs. Let’s do a bigger step and make him interesting. Midbands at 3 maxband at 5! Maybe you can create a too strong deck with him, but let’s find out.

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My own 2g on proposals so far:

  • Vandy midband / Meta nerf is good.

  • Garrison not drawing cards for hasted units is good. I’m willing to try the harsher no-haste-for-you version as well.

  • General’s Hammer buff to $2 is good.

  • Jail should not cost $2. If we really want to buff it, maybe give it 1 extra hp. EDIT: did a search for “Jail (” in these two threads to find games where it was played. 5 wins in 6 games.

  • No strong opinion about Lich’s Bargain, Battle Suits, or Troq’s levelling.

A couple of other thoughts:

  • MoLaC is currently over-nerfed. I’d walk it back and instead either reduce it to +3/+3, or change it to require tapping (so it can’t be activated the turn it’s played).

  • Buffs to Intimidate: change it to -4/-1 or make it last until your next upkeep (or both).

1 Like
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Blue

I concur. I don’t think cheaper Jail will help in Blue vs Black but will instead boost early game Blue vs Red, Green and Purple.

How about we give Reputable Newsman Can’t be sacrificed ?

Right now Blue has to get early game decisions perfectly right vs Black because of the twin pincer of Deteriorate and StW, the former of which always hits Newsman first due to its 0 attack. I can kind of justify it head-canon wise due to the “Streisand Effect”(suppression of news usually makes people pay more attention to it) which makes martyring a journalist usually fairly counterproductive.

This all said, Jail could probably use 4HP so I’d potentially be in favour of that buff.

Generals Hammer for 2g is good. Blue also has other overcosted and/or lackluster spells (Community Service, Jurisdiction, Hallucination, Dreamscape, Mind Control) but I don’t think fixing them becomes relevant until we do something about Blue starter to make it more viable. At least Peace is played more generally so easier to test.

One other change I like for Blue is to tweak Building Inspector to:

Opponents must pay you 1g to build or rebuild a building

Blue struggles to generate board value from its pre-counters and this puts the gold directly into the hands of the Blue player. It also increases the utility of Building Inspector in the late game if Blue has destroyed a tech building. It probably also helps Tax Collector actually steal some gold as opponents are way more averse to just handing you gold.

Troq

I’ve not tested Troq levels but I think it would fit his growth potion flavour to level like Grave: midband at L3 and Maxband at L7. When I played yomi I always thought of him as “grappler Grave” with his strong blocks, good reversals and huge super.

I think it’s important he levels in some way differently to River to preserve some contrast between them but having him be a big body early would really help his usability. Doubly true if we swap his mid and maxband to really make him function like a neutral Grave.

I don’t know if I would add a -1HP to Intimidate but how about:

Exhaust a unit or hero and give them -4ATK until end of turn. Draw a card.

This makes it a clear parallel to bootcamp and makes it more like his Yomi war stomp. I think it fits flavour wise and gives him some fun utility for cracking through a patrol.

Misc

MoLaC nerf does seem over harsh but I haven’t tested it. We need to have skilled Miracle Grow testing to investigate it further.

Edit: Took out some unnecessary bloat and re-ordered

1 Like
21

I was thinking about Troq again. @mysticjuicer is this what happened when he became your waifu main? :sweat_smile:

I’m well aware I write essays as opposed to easily digestible posts so here is my attempt at being brief:

Buffs
Troq Midband at 3, maxband at 7
Modify midband ability to “Attacks: deal 1 damage to one of that opponent’s buildings”
Modify maxband ability to Overpower
The Boot Modify text to “Discard a card, then destroy a tech 0, I or II unit” modify type from “Spell - Debuff” to “Spell”
Intimidate Modify text to “Give a unit or hero -4/-1 until end of turn. Draw a card.”

I think midband at 3 is key to getting Troq to see play more when we have Vandy/Calamandra/Grave/Rook also on offer as big bodies attached to more exciting specs.

The more I thought about it, Overpower just feels much more on flavour than Readiness and Overpower would be unique amongst heroes. Midband “damage a building” lets him break an add-on by himself, which actually seems great.

I think The Boot really needs to be more flexible and scale better into the late game. Limiting it to Tech 0 or I makes it very hard to tech in. I’m not convinced on the upgrade removal cost wise as Midori can trash an upgrade for 2g and Vir can steal one for 3g. I think keeping it simple (i.e. “Bashing-y”) but extending it’s scope is the best choice. I added a discard effect to try and balance it. It’s more costly for early use but still valuable vs Finesse to stop Fencers for example.

I’ve combined @Dreamfire’s and my own suggestions for Intimidate. It feels like a combination of Discord and Boot Camp which I like. The discard in The Boot and card draw here feel synergistic, which Bashing sorely needs. Card draw is also good with Wrecking Ball and with just getting his chunky units out.

TLDR: Troq likes bashing, let him bash.

2 Likes
22

Out of respect for my main, I abstained from conscious thought while playing Yomi 1 Troq. :pensive: :pray:

6 Likes
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IMHO this is the only kind of buff that we should currently consider for the Blue starter - ones that are specifically targeted at the Blue v Black matchup.

Another option in this vein that I previously proposed was to make Deteriorate unable to pop illusions. Force the Black player to play Skeletal Archery or tech a Crypt Crawler (the way every other color needs to proactively pursue an answer to Spectral Aven).

OTOH, a buff to Jail or Building Inspector or w/e helps the side that is already strongly favored in Blue v Purple (and TBH, if any blue starter card needs a buff it’s Bluecoat Musketeer, not these).

At this point I’m willing to try out just about any buffs to Troq. That said, swapping out Readiness for Overpower is not a buff but a flavor change, which I consider outside the purview of a balance patch.

Also, the proposed buff to The Boot strikes me as hilariously overpowered, but again, I’m willing to try anything. I would however suggest to change the wording to match Doom Grasp: “Discard a card. If you do, destroy a tech 0, I or II unit.”

2 Likes
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@thehug0naut The changes are worth testing. I am not so sure if that is enough for players to take him. I would still not choose him. Overpower is for me not worth it, although it is a very strong ability.

With leveling at 3 and 5 I might consider him for a deck. But still Grave, Vandy or Cala are in almost all cases the better choice for me. Spells better, tech 1 better and tech2 better. So you just take him if you want a neutral starter or stay mono color. And if he does not level at 3 and 5 you will have to pay the 1g bonus later back.

We buffed him, and still no one thinks he is worth playing in a tournament. I doubt that this will change it. But if you want to play him with those buffs, you have my support.

1 Like
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I like this quite a bit actually. Easiest implementations would be:

Deteriorate
Version 1 Give a non-illusion unit -1/-1 until end of turn.
Version 2 Remove :target: symbol

If anyone is game for it, I would be up for testing the Blue side of Blue vs Black with either of these and/or my StW-proof Newsman suggestion.

Absolutely fair comment, though I would argue that Overpower is still very much in-keeping with the flavour of Troq the character. Regardless I’m happy to pull back on some of my more radical ideas so we can get something agreed. I think that is the most important thing for this project.

My current suggestion for bashing then becomes:

Bashing
Troq Midband at 3, maxband at 7
Swap mid and maxband
Modify maxband to “Attacks: deal 1 damage to one of that opponent’s buildings”
The Boot Modify text to “Discard a card. If you do, destroy a tech 0, I or II unit” modify type from “Spell - Debuff” to “Spell”
Intimidate Modify text to “Give a unit or hero -4/-1 until end of turn. Draw a card.”

His Tech I units are still not that great but at least he would now have good spell utility throughout a game. I would also be up for testing these changes in a series of games. Is that what you were meaning @Moby_Dick, or did you mean you’re happy for these to be live in a tournament?

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Removing targeting from deteriorate is… not recommended. Now it kills traffic director and nullcraft, and bypasses resist. It’s a huge buff.

And I think the first one doesn’t prevent it from actually targeting the illusion? It means the illusion doesn’t get the debuff, in case of it being buffed by macciatus, but you can still target the illusion, which is what kills it.

2 Likes
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I don’t think that’s right, is it? Otherwise anything that targets and affects patrollers could pop an non-patrolling illusion, and Thunderclap’s peculiarities would be the norm. Being able to target illusions would have text like “Give a unit -1/-1 if it’s an illusion”.

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Thunderclap works like that because the card itself does not specify it must target patrollers. I think all other cards that deal with sidelining specify patroller

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@thehug0naut Yes, the second one. I have currently not much time for testing or playing.

We buffed Troq, but no one plays him, so we don’t even see if the changes are useful or not. So there must be changes, that someone is willing to play him. (I don’t think your proposals are that radical). If the proposed changes are for you enough to play him, go ahead. I see him still too weak…

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Cards that do something to “a patrolling unit” can’t target non-patrolling units (e.g. Arrest). So a card that does something to “a non-illusion unit” can’t target illusions. Plus, you know, there’s not much point in arguing about what the card “actually” does, when we’re deciding what we want it to do.

5 Likes
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I disagree, keeping the rules internally consistent is still important.

I can’t think of any other card that excludes a target rather than specifying, so I don’t know if we have something to base it on

32

Can Thunderclap target a Spectral Roc?

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Good catch! This is exactly why we need to use our codex hive mind to process changes.

I don’t think this is how I’ve ever understood targeting to work in codex. I don’t think you can target separately from the actual effect. If you could, for example, Vandy could use her Maxband to pop Tech II illusions even though she explicitly isn’t allowed to doombuff them, or I could use Bloom/Forest’s Favour to pop opposing illusions despite only being allowed to give runes to friendly units.

1 Like