I’m 100% in favor of that.
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Oh yeah, Midori change is good.
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For reference.
Sounds good!
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I am strongly against the Midori change. The balance effect is too strong.
Ninja tokens, for example, can be both prolific and have lots of buffs. Doubling their stats in addition to potentially being invisible, hasty, stealthy, and/or flying is a significant potential exploit.
Even the more achievable possibility of having 4/4 Spectral Hounds with stealth for 1 gold is clearly a problem. There are no units that have stealth that have greater than 3 attack out of the tin except for Stalking Tiger, which is restricted to stealthily attacking units. With this midori buff, it would be too trivial to break towers with stealthy stacked hounds, and 4 damage is also a significant threat to most heroes.
Say we pair this with a nerf so that midori’s midband doesn’t affect illusions to avoid the value of Spectral Hounds… then we’re making a change just to enable Iron Man to get buffed by Midori and stealth from Behind the Ferns at the same time… isn’t that a bit too silly of an image?
In summary, that interaction with Midori and Behind the Ferns is super annoying as it is, but it is that way for good reasons.
The 4 ATK Hounds and Iron Men won’t get stealth from Behind the Ferns, since Behind the Ferns is still limited to 3 ATK.
The only thing that changes in that interaction is that it becomes straightforward - the units have no printed abilities, so they get buffed, so they don’t get stealth. (Compared to the current state, where either the same thing happens, or they get stealth and no buff, depending on what happened first).
And honestly, nothing you mentioned sounds overpowered to me. Setting up FDStudents + Midbandori? That is super hard, it’s ok if it’s powerful.
Edit: and Hidden Ninja already gets you 4 ATK + stealth.
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Hidden Ninja isn’t a unit.
Skeletal Archery is another interaction that could be too strong.
This is a significant balance change being proposed. It’s very likely that these ideas were considered in the initial balancing of the game, which is why we have this very annoying ruling. It would be a mistake to assume that we know better on this without significant balance testing.
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Chameleon Lizzo is 4 stealth attack, but most people forget about it.
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My bad. That’s a very special lizzo!
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Just so we’re all on the same page, here’s an exhaustive list of all the units Midori’s midband can buff:
All units with no printed abilites
Neutral
Tenderfoot
Older Brother
Iron Man
Regular-sized Rhino
Red
Pirate token (created by Pirate Gang Commander)
Green
Tiger Cub
Wisp token (created in various ways)
Frog / Beast token (created by Murkwood Allies)
Squirrel token (created by Moss Ancient / Polymorph: Squirrel)
Oversized Rhino
Blue
Mirror token (created by Quince)
Overeager Cadet
Spectral Hound
Spectral Tiger
Black
Skeleton token (created in various ways)
Zombie token (created by Lich’s Bargain)
Warlock token (created by Terras Q)
White
Ardra’s Boulder
Ninja token (created by Fox’s Den Students)
Purple
Neo Plexus
And here’s an exhaustive list of all the cards that can give those units abilities (in other words, cards that have negative synergy with Midori’s midband):
All ability-granting cards
Neutral
Nimble Fencer: haste (only for Tenderfoot)
Maestro: exhaust to damage a building (only for Tenderfoot)
Blademaster: swift strike
Red
Charge: haste
Drakk: frenzy 1, haste
Sanatorium: haste, ephemeral
Kidnapping: haste
Bloodlust: haste
Pirate Gang Commander: deal damage to base on death
Green
Calamandra: resist 1
Fairie Dragon: flying
Ferocity: swift strike, armor piercing
Behind the Ferns: stealth
Moss Ancient: haste, invisible (only for Squirrels)
Spirit of the Panda: gain gold on attack
Blooming Elm: overpower
Blue
Elite Training: anti-air, sparkshot
Eyes of the Chancellor: invisible
Black
Skeletal Archery: anti-air, long-range (only for Skeletons)
Lord of Shadows: invisible (only for Skeletons, Zombies and Warlocks)
White
Hidden Ninja: stealth
Fox’s Den Students: haste, stealth (only for Ninjas)
Fox’s Den School: invisible
Jade Fox: flying, swift strike
Purple
Vortoss Emblem: flagbearer
Now!: haste
Unphase: invisible
When I look at those two lists, I don’t see anything that would be overpowered if we changed how Midori’s midband interacts with them.
To put things in perspective, you can already combine any of those with Drakk’s midband (which also, you know, works with every other unit in the game)
I almost have the opposite reaction looking at the two lists- not necessarily every single combo but the fact that the change would amount to a significant buff to an already perfectly usable spec. It’s not just a simplification if it impacts so many interactions.
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Let me ask it this way - is there a single combo in there that you would play a codex for?
Both the ninjas and the skeletons.
I’m imagining Zango’s playstyle of rushing Fox’s Den Students, and then even if you deal with Setsuki then the students can be buffed by Midori and Fox’s Den School for a powerful midgame transition. Giving such a strong recovery would remove the drawback from such an all-in playstyle.
Giant skeleton archers would get lots of free trades, and would be great a clearing the skies for dragon-form midori. It’s true that skeletal lords can also make skeletons big, but with tech 2 there’s usually some intel that Necromancy is picked as the spec and there’s room for counterplay. This would make Lich’s Bargain even stronger.
That’s a lot of balance risk.
Midori doesn’t get a lot of play, though, and costs 6 to Midband.
It’s a little high risk of being op for the ethos of the change list here but I wouldn’t be upset to include it either. Balance truth necromancy coming back as strong for that interaction wouldn’t be the worst thing imo.
I’m going to call one last time for the 4 cost super boot rewrite. I have kind of fallen in love with that version of the card now and want to play bashing just to try it. Would anyone be game to play test that with the troq body changes just to see if it’s good?
Well, we’re looking for unanimously agreed upon changes, and that’s clearly not the case with the Midbandori change, so I’ll give it a rest.
I guess we could test it, but it’ll probably take multiple games to see the change actually come up.
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So what’s your takeaway from the nerfs during the XCAPS22 tournament?
The MoLaC nerf obviously prevented it from being played, but zhavier hat really rough matches, don’t think that the sample size is big enough to conclude anything from that.
Garth nerf felt reasonable for me even though it didn’t happen often that it actually mattered.
Vandy midband felt for me like an absolute corner fringe case of it being nearly irrelevant. Det and DP are still way too strong, especially in combination.
Gunship nerf lead to dreamfire not having a very good side strategy available with moment’s peace into gunships to just win. I’m personally very happy with that change, even though we didn’t see a single gunship, which probably is exactly what I was hoping for 
LB’s increased damage felt reasonable, but I really don’t know whether it now is less overpowered or maybe even too weak.
Agreed, inconclusive.
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You’re right that the sample size is small, but it’s an inevitable side effect of nerfs that the nerfed card is played less often. I personally think it’s too big a hit.
Agreed on all counts.
I wouldn’t draw any conclusions about these nerfs from the current tournament. Is that contradicting my own position regarding MoLaC? Maybe. But MoLaC is a linchpin of zhav’s Miracle Grow, whereas Frozen rarely goes for Lich’s Bargain with Nightmare, and I usually make do with T-Rexes on this deck.
@charnel_mouse as the only other player with Necro/Anarchy, do you have thoughts on these nerfs?
I don’t know that I have enough experience with it to properly say, to be honest. Lich’s Bargain is something that you don’t for every matchup, but can be key when you do. I don’t think I got any of the latter matchups this time.
This is why my original change to Might of Leaf and Claw was a simple numbers reduction, in order to trim it down without destroying it. I maintain that +3/+3 is a fair change, but I could be convinced of +4/+4 if people are too hesitant.
As for the Vandy midband, if it is so inconsequential, leave it gone. It’s unnecessary power for an already top tier hero, so get rid of it. I think we agree that further nerfs are necessary, but let’s keep them small as always. Making Dark Pact 1 gold is a good place to start.
Deteriorate is a starter deck card, and you know my opinion on those.
Garth nerf is probably good, I agree it didn’t come up super often, but I think over time we will see a trend of slightly less safe Garths, which is a good thing.
Gunship nerf is just good, I will not take any further questions.
Lich’s Bargain nerf agains seems minor, but I think it will stack up over time.
But, my original stated goal, and I have been brewing this for years, is a new standard of tournament play. To that end, I propose:
No MoLaC nerf, keep all the others.
We can test more nerfs in the future, but if we agree that these nerfs did not significantly hinder the decks they are played in (except weakening gunship in a healthy way), then I motion that we keep them as a new Forum Standard™.
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I agree that it would be simpler just to tone down the bonus amount. +3/+3 is already really good. even +2/+2 breaks all the combat math if youre making tokens or anything like that.
I think losing the resist 1 is barely a nerf at all, I would rather see Vandy’s midband go up to 4-5 and max at 6.