@Bryce_The_Rice I’ll reply to this here instead of in the rules thread.
Previous proposed changes to Bird’s Nest (I linked a few earlier) were to increase its cost to 3, remove its arrives part (so that it only gives birds a turn after you cast it), or slow it down (decrease the arrives and upkeep parts to 1 bird, while keeping the limit: 2).
I still say sacrifice makes more sense, comparable to losing Hive and sacrificing Stingers.
Edit: one other thing it matters to, that wasn’t mentioned in the rules thread, is all the “dies: X happens” effects, like Bloodburn, Bugblatter, Corpse Catapult, Death Rites…
Edit 2: it’s overall rare for cards to trash units; the wording is only used when the intended target is indestructible (Mox, the Ghost from Hero’s Monument) or can easily be indestructible (Quince’s Mirrors, Geiger’s and Prynn’s maxbands).
We say that tokens are trashed when they’re bounced, but that’s not wording that appears on any card, it’s just a way to convey that they don’t die the normal way.
I think these changes are great for buffing troq. Especially the versatile idea for boot seems to be a great enhancement such that it’s going to be interesting to splash bashing into your deck.
I don’t think that you should compare the suggested 4 gold cost to other upgrade removal. The two times I played a deck with Vir and had good upgrades on the table against me, I still didn’t want to tech assimilate as the card would have had value only once. After stealing the upgrade it would have been a dead card. That’s the main downside of non-trashing upgrade removal. The suggested change to boot would make it a great t3 tech choice as it’s unit removal could be awesome in the early midgame and afterwards still has versatile options.
so is everyone in agreement these are decent enough buffs for bashing? I still feel like Torq himself is kind of on the weak end, but I do like the Wrecking Ball change ideas.
I definitely don’t agree with putting that effect on Wrecking Ball; that card’s fine as-is, and 0-cost upgrade/ongoing spell removal is crazy strong (and if anyone thinks that’s hyperbole, I point you to posts that have been made here claiming that a 4-cost card with that same effect is something they’d play). Besides, it seems like most people here think that effect would be better on The Boot instead.
I’ll lobby harder for boot getting some hero hate and doing more unit hate. I think it’s still missing a reason to use it with just the upgrade kill addition
I’m not necessarily opposed to those things, to be clear, I just don’t like it getting such a power boost from one or two of the options that it needs to have its cost increased. And again, if one of the options is significantly stronger than the others then that one could be a good candidate to be a boost option; for example, maybe it stays at cost 3 and the unit hate option remains as-is by default, but if you boost it then it becomes ‘and’ instead of ‘or’.
Sorry to be a killjoy, but this thread is confusing me.
Are we talking about a balance patch - a set of tweaks that the community can agree on to apply to all pbf games from here on out - the way @Bryce_The_Rice originally suggested?
Or are we talking about a set of changes to shake up the meta for a limited run of games?
Because if it’s the latter, I can get behind every single one of the changes proposed upthread. But if it’s the former, I’ll push back against the ones that I don’t find absolutely necessary.
I think the objective is to do a minimal balance patch, primarily focusing on nerfing the over powered things, but it seemed like everyone agreed bashing needed to be spiced up, as it is currently entirely unplayable in competitive play. I think just a couple bashing changes could give it some viability, but I feel like I’ve been doing half the talking in here and I’d rather listen to other people and get a consensus that way.
I don’t think Bashing is unplayable. IIRC EricF won a tournament playing [Bashing]/Demon/Necro. In general, replacing one spec of a mono-color with Bashing to get the neutral starter is pretty strong.
The problem with Bashing is that it lacks a niche. Take Finesse instead, and you get one of the game’s few hasty tech 1 units, one of the game’s few AoE spells, and one of the game’s few “tribal” tech 2 plans.
Almost anything that Bashing can do, some other spec can do better. It has a couple of fun unique interactions (Iron Man with Midbandori, Wrecking Ball with draw engines), but they’re, well, a little too niche.
So yeah, I’m in favor of adding The Boot to the game’s few upgrade removal spells, to give Bashing more of a niche. I definitely don’t think it needs hero hate, because Troq already has a spell for that niche: Intimidate (though if you think that’s too weak, I could see buffing it to -4/-1, or to last until your next upkeep).
Add that to the buffs to Troq’s stats, and I’ll say Bashing will be fine. I definitely don’t think we should be buffing any of its tech 1 or 2 units, since, again, just coming with the neutral starter is already a serious advantage.
But harvest reaper already has 6 attack, enough to kill any unbuffed hero in squad leader. Unless you’re planning to overpower minus runes? Seems bizarrely niche.
This is kind of why I’ve dipped out of the thread mostly. People started talking about lots of changes, missing the point of my original premise: small, unanimously agreed upon, very minor tweaks (nerfs) to pull down the power of some stuff that’s clearly too good.
I had some fun mucking around with using Garth’s maxband with Bashing Tech II, since its units do pretty different things and you can be flexible. Need to hit something at the back, right now? Tech a Sneaky Pig and fetch it, off you go. It does have the same problem as Bashing in general, which is that it’s a very unforgiving spec that it’s difficult to come back from behind with. Green finds it difficult too, but its heroes’ spells give it a chance. Troq’s spells don’t allow that.
Yeah, I suggested the bizarrely niche buff to harvest reaper based on the idea that the overpower damage hitting a hero might have the extra impact, riffing off of @FrozenStorm’s ask for ways to buff hero hate in Bashing. I was specifically thinking about niche suggestions to have less impact on the starter set matchup.
I can report that I played a friendly game with [Bashing]/Balance/Demonology over the weekend and it seemed strong enough, anecdotally. Early on I was threatening lots of value with Midori’s midband to buff Iron Man, Older Brother, and Tenderfoot, and when he was killed I was able to go into Vandy and win with Possession into demon-dragon Midori.
Troq has a lot of late game power here, so if you can survive until the late game, you can ride Final Smashes to victory.
So it sounds like the biggest strength of the spec might involve playing a more defensive play style to position yourself for some strong Final Smash plays in endgame. Defensive play is higher skill in RTS games, and I think Codex shares this. It’s quite possible that Bashing is balanced, but that the meta is just immature for the playstyle that would bring out its strengths.
You can literally play [pile of cat shit]/demon/necro and win, so I don’t think that’s a very useful point of data.
For @Bryce_The_Rice’s comment, I’m starting to agree to just leave it at the couple bashing changes and the rest of the nerfs and give that a try. The meta that would develop could be surprising once the hair is shaved off the top few specs.
Part of me still wants to include that Midori change I mentioned too, not for balance reasons but instead purely to reduce the number of confusing interactions in the game, but that’s probably on the less important side of things compared to those balance adjustments.