I tend to agree that if we’re hell-bent on making bashing viable, the key lies in tech 1, hero, and spells
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I’m not so much a fan of the enemy hero thing since that doesn’t feel thematically connected with kicking things, and cost 4 is really high for destroying an upgrade or ongoing spell since most other spells that do so are cost 2, I’m assuming the higher cost is mainly because of the destroying two units thing? IMO it really needs to stay cost 3 at most.
Also I’ve just remembered something that came up in past balance discussions and seemed pretty uncontroversial at the time: making Midori’s ability that affects no-ability units apply to units with no printed abilities. This wasn’t even about the balance side as much, though it is a buff, rather the main benefit is to reduce the rules headache of having it and Behind the Ferns active at the same time since order of operations matters as the cards are currently printed.
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Kicking things down a level, like goomba stomping on them with a boot!
Yeah I thought “this is close to as good as Doom Grasp” so thought it should go to cost 4.
I agree that it’s expensive for Upgrade Removal. But so what? It’s not supposed to be the best answer to those, it’s just flexible to have it. You can use it for tempo and having in your deck threatens the opponent not to rely on an upgrade. That’s probably good enough right?
Look at other 4 cost non ultimates. It’s competing with doom grasp, flame arrow, ready or not, and kidnapping. It should be slightly worse, sure, but I’m not thinking it’s good enough at 4. Make it 3 and a bit worse.
Eh, I feel that’s a bit weak thematically, but fair enough. I think it’s still crazy expensive for the upgrade/spell destroying effect though, for reference Assimilate is only 3g and that one lets you steal their card instead of just destroying it. If you’re really determined to have it include an effect strong enough to make it at Doom Grasp levels, then maybe it should be a boost card where its base price isn’t as high but you can pay more to get the stronger stuff? But I agree more with Bomber here, I’d rather it just stay a cost 3 card and not be quite as powerful.
How about it stays 3g, the unit destroying effect stays as currently printed, it doesn’t have the level thing, but you get both the unit effect and the spell/upgrade effect, instead of a choice? Would that be too much at 3g? (If that is too much, maybe it’s a choice but you can boost to make it both?)
@Bryce_The_Rice I’ll reply to this here instead of in the rules thread.
Previous proposed changes to Bird’s Nest (I linked a few earlier) were to increase its cost to 3, remove its arrives part (so that it only gives birds a turn after you cast it), or slow it down (decrease the arrives and upkeep parts to 1 bird, while keeping the limit: 2).
I still say sacrifice makes more sense, comparable to losing Hive and sacrificing Stingers.
Edit: one other thing it matters to, that wasn’t mentioned in the rules thread, is all the “dies: X happens” effects, like Bloodburn, Bugblatter, Corpse Catapult, Death Rites…
Edit 2: it’s overall rare for cards to trash units; the wording is only used when the intended target is indestructible (Mox, the Ghost from Hero’s Monument) or can easily be indestructible (Quince’s Mirrors, Geiger’s and Prynn’s maxbands).
We say that tokens are trashed when they’re bounced, but that’s not wording that appears on any card, it’s just a way to convey that they don’t die the normal way.
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I think these changes are great for buffing troq. Especially the versatile idea for boot seems to be a great enhancement such that it’s going to be interesting to splash bashing into your deck.
I don’t think that you should compare the suggested 4 gold cost to other upgrade removal. The two times I played a deck with Vir and had good upgrades on the table against me, I still didn’t want to tech assimilate as the card would have had value only once. After stealing the upgrade it would have been a dead card. That’s the main downside of non-trashing upgrade removal. The suggested change to boot would make it a great t3 tech choice as it’s unit removal could be awesome in the early midgame and afterwards still has versatile options.
| Buffs | |
|---|---|
| Torq | Reduce midband to 4-6, reduce maxband to 7 |
| The Boot | Add text “or destroy an upgrade or ongoing spell” |
so is everyone in agreement these are decent enough buffs for bashing? I still feel like Torq himself is kind of on the weak end, but I do like the Wrecking Ball change ideas.
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I definitely don’t agree with putting that effect on Wrecking Ball; that card’s fine as-is, and 0-cost upgrade/ongoing spell removal is crazy strong (and if anyone thinks that’s hyperbole, I point you to posts that have been made here claiming that a 4-cost card with that same effect is something they’d play). Besides, it seems like most people here think that effect would be better on The Boot instead.
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Mistake! should be The Boot
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I’ll lobby harder for boot getting some hero hate and doing more unit hate. I think it’s still missing a reason to use it with just the upgrade kill addition
I’m not necessarily opposed to those things, to be clear, I just don’t like it getting such a power boost from one or two of the options that it needs to have its cost increased. And again, if one of the options is significantly stronger than the others then that one could be a good candidate to be a boost option; for example, maybe it stays at cost 3 and the unit hate option remains as-is by default, but if you boost it then it becomes ‘and’ instead of ‘or’.
What about changing a different card in that spec to get the hero hate?
Hmm… sneaky pig is probably already good sneaking around patrols to kill heroes. Similar with Eggship.
Oh, what about an ocelot buff?? +1 damage vs heroes?
Or have harvest reaper give heroes nightmares in the form of a -1/-1 token if it deals combat damage to a hero?
Harvest Reaper giving -1/-1 to heroes in combat damage is pretty awesome, that becomes a good reason to play Bashing T2 I think
Sorry to be a killjoy, but this thread is confusing me.
Are we talking about a balance patch - a set of tweaks that the community can agree on to apply to all pbf games from here on out - the way @Bryce_The_Rice originally suggested?
Or are we talking about a set of changes to shake up the meta for a limited run of games?
Because if it’s the latter, I can get behind every single one of the changes proposed upthread. But if it’s the former, I’ll push back against the ones that I don’t find absolutely necessary.
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I would be very much interested in the former. Don’t have a strong opinion about how many changes this should include then.
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I think the objective is to do a minimal balance patch, primarily focusing on nerfing the over powered things, but it seemed like everyone agreed bashing needed to be spiced up, as it is currently entirely unplayable in competitive play. I think just a couple bashing changes could give it some viability, but I feel like I’ve been doing half the talking in here and I’d rather listen to other people and get a consensus that way.
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I don’t think Bashing is unplayable. IIRC EricF won a tournament playing [Bashing]/Demon/Necro. In general, replacing one spec of a mono-color with Bashing to get the neutral starter is pretty strong.
The problem with Bashing is that it lacks a niche. Take Finesse instead, and you get one of the game’s few hasty tech 1 units, one of the game’s few AoE spells, and one of the game’s few “tribal” tech 2 plans.
Almost anything that Bashing can do, some other spec can do better. It has a couple of fun unique interactions (Iron Man with Midbandori, Wrecking Ball with draw engines), but they’re, well, a little too niche.
So yeah, I’m in favor of adding The Boot to the game’s few upgrade removal spells, to give Bashing more of a niche. I definitely don’t think it needs hero hate, because Troq already has a spell for that niche: Intimidate (though if you think that’s too weak, I could see buffing it to -4/-1, or to last until your next upkeep).
Add that to the buffs to Troq’s stats, and I’ll say Bashing will be fine. I definitely don’t think we should be buffing any of its tech 1 or 2 units, since, again, just coming with the neutral starter is already a serious advantage.
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But harvest reaper already has 6 attack, enough to kill any unbuffed hero in squad leader. Unless you’re planning to overpower minus runes? Seems bizarrely niche.
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