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#161

So am I right in thinking that the pseudo-code for this might be like:

const EX = Object.assign({}, menelker, {
    ... stuff unique to EX Menelker here ...
});

const DSD = Object.assign({}, DSD, {
    ... stuff unique to Deathstrike Dragon here ...
});

menelker.variants = {
    ... call both of those consts and add stuff that would be shared? ...
};

Edit: And if that’s right, how do I do that last part?


#162

I think we’re almost there.

const EX = Object.assign({}, menelker, {
    ... stuff that makes EX Menelker different than 2nd Ed Menelker ...
});

const DSD = Object.assign({}, EX, {
    ... stuff that makes Deathstrike Dragon different than EX Menelker ...
});

menelker.variants = {
    "EX": EX,
    "DSD": DSD
};

When defining either EX or DSD, you’re specifying what to derive from (the second argument to Object.assign), and then all values that are different (the third argument to Object.assign). The last section is just giving names to those two variables so that the dropdown can use them.


#163

Ah, now it’s all clear! It’s always the small details, isn’t it? I had a classmate in my first CS class who was convinced that he was a terrible programmer because he kept forgetting semicolons or using = instead of == in C++. Anyway, I can probably get that done either tonight or tomorrow now that I understand it.


#164

Make that “within half an hour,” apparently! :sweat_smile:

I’ve added Deathstrike Dragon as a pull request on the off chance I messed something up, but it’s probably fine (Edit: except I apparently forgot to actually submit the pull request instead of just making a branch! That’s been fixed now). More importantly, there are a couple of things he needs that can’t be displayed currently:

  • DSD’s max hand size is 20 cards. For obvious reasons, there’s been no need to display anything about that until now.
  • I’m pretty sure DSD draws more than 1 card per turn, but I’m not sure how many cards. @Bomber678, am I right about that?
  • It would be nice (but not essential) if “Master Menelker” could be displayed as a small title either right above or right in front of Deathstrike Dragon. It would mirror the physical card and be one more way to show how strong he is (Tangentially related: I think the titles ought to be on a separate line from the character names, in part to more accurately reflect the physical cards – but I’ll admit that it’s mostly a stylistic choice, rather than anything important).

#165

Thanks for the awesome work on this guys. Now that EX characters are in here, it would be nice if mirror matches were possible again so you could compare regular vs. EX side by side.


#166

Also, there is some kind of bug where if the left (red) character has an EX mode selected, you can’t select it for the right (blue) character. This doesn’t happen in reverse though, so if you want to show an EX mirror match, you have to select EX for the blue character first.


#167

Just two cards.
Do note he has six combo points too, and a couple extra abilities on his innate.


#168

@Barrelfish: I had already reported that bug, so @vengefulpickle is aware of it. I believe he even knows how to fix it, so it just needs to get done. I agree that mirror matches should be possible, but it’s a bit hard to display that with the character select interface for PCs… Now I’m trying to remember how it looks when both players pick the same character in Fantasy Strike.

@Bomber678: Thanks! I’ve already changed his combo points and innate, since those can already be done, but I can’t add anything to note the larger hand size and draw.


#169

All of the EX characters are now added! Still waiting on the updated combo code before doing that for them, but anyone just wanting to see the new abilities and such can get that now. @vengefulpickle, there’s also the Deathstrike Dragon waiting for you to merge it in, since I can’t add the 20 card hand limit or the 2 cards per draw phase.

In the meantime, if someone has info on the 1st Edition characters I can start adding those in. I might dig up some info on them tomorrow or Saturday, but I’d rather get it from a reliable source (like someone who owns them).


#170

Sweet. My Yomi coding time has been spent recently on the analyses I was doing in the State of the Game thread. Glad you’re still pushing this forward, though. :smile:


#171

I’ve added 1st Edition Grave as a proof of concept/test. There’s still some issues, like how it looks weird to claim his name is “1st Edition Grave Stormborne” and the timing tags still being visible (but empty), but it does work.

Tangent about 1st Edition characters

So, I knew going into this that the 1st Edition characters were mostly the same, but had wording changes for ease of use and balance changes. The wording changes are fine, they make sense when you remember that this was Sirlin’s first game, but the balance changes are interesting. Knowing the Opponent used to always give a Queen if you played your declared card, regardless of whether you won combat? Mental Toughness used to be a perfect counter (no other cost than the 10 it’s printed on)? And people complain about 2nd Edition Grave sometimes…

I know that Valerie’s Burst of Speed is the commonly-cited example of a needed change between Editions, but now I’m more curious than ever what I’ll be turning up with the others…


#172

Added 1st Edition Midori and Setsuki (Jaina needs some back-end work to make the chip damage on her normals correct, so @vengefulpickle can merge the pull request for her whenever he’s able to get that working).

More thoughts about 1st Edition characters

Midori got some interesting changes in the move to 2nd Edition. Defense Mastery is less of a buff than an “anti-nerf,” since it’s really just there to make the new normal draw rule not completely destroy him… Similarly, I’ve heard that Dragon attacks had to stop beating special dodges so that Quince could function, though that does give him a bit harder of a time against DeGrey and Lum. On the other hand, Talon Swoop got sped up from 2.2 to 1.8 so that it could beat Rook and Troq’s 2-throws (meaning they aren’t able to option select against both it and block/dodge), and most important of all, he gets to reclaim cards from earlier in the match if he blocks in Dragon Form. This is a wonderful way to buff him, since he really only needs a few cards to work well as a Dragon, so searching the discard to get back the specific card he needs is a lot better of a payoff for blocking than maybe getting one of the few cards you need that are still in the deck. Also, it gives him more incentive to block, which means the opponent is more likely to throw… Which leaves them vulnerable to any of his Dragon moves. A beautiful change, even if Midori is still low tier in both 1st and 2nd edition.

Setsuki, on the other hand, got only a single change that wasn’t just improved wording on abilities: Smoke Bomb used to be able to counter a character’s innate ability, and now it can’t. I wonder how much of that was due to balance considerations and how much was just to make the system-wide rule be that innates can’t be countered?


#173

Added 1st Edition Rook and DeGrey. @vengefulpickle also merged Deathstrike Dragon and added extra features to show everything that’s unique to him, like the larger hand size. I did notice that he’s not copying anything from EX Menelker, even though we specifically set him up to do that… Until that’s figured out, just imagine that he has the Destiny rank too! :sweat_smile:

Even more thoughts on 1st Edition Characters

Rook was surprising to look at. Ignoring the lack of Defense Mastery in 1st Edition, we have a very strange version of Entangling Vines that not only required discarding a normal throw to do any damage, but also did 8 damage and did not knock down… Cleaning that up was a great call, since the current version makes Rook easier to understand and use while also giving more of a reason to favor Entangling Vines over Stone Wall based on the situation and matchup. The other big surprise was that Windmill Crusher used to have no ability, meaning that the only difference between it and a normal throw in most matchups was that it did an extra 5 damage instead of knocking down (and it couldn’t be used for Entangling Vines, I guess). Another great improvement that helps Rook in quite a few matchups, I’m sure. Now I wonder whether 1st Edition Rook was considered to be as low-tier back then as 2nd Edition Rook is now…? He got some great new tools, but also improved competition.

DeGrey is boring and only got one balance change, which was that 1st Edition Moral High Ground didn’t affect his super attack at all. Now it does, and I’ve seen some people claim that a hypothetical 3rd Edition should revert it back to not affecting super. Either way, DeGrey has been basically OK balance wise since the release of 1st Edition. On the strong side, perhaps, but not to the point that Zane is… Never mind, apparently he used to be pathetic. Who would’ve guessed based on the number and scale of changes to DeGrey himself? Not me!


#174

IIRC, DeGrey was considered the weakest character by quite a margin in 1st ed Yomi…


#175

That’s interesting to hear, since he’s one of the “top 4” now with only system-wide rule changes and a tweak to his innate… I’m guessing he benefits from the normal draw rule quite a bit, since it gives him another way to build his hand that isn’t as efficient (so he can keep MHG going while getting cards he needs) and giving his opponents more ways to build hand (so they have a harder time avoiding MHG). Could be completely wrong, of course, but that’s my best guess.


#176

I believe he was considered quite good overall? Probably mid-tier at worst? But I wasn’t around at the time. I can’t imagine he would have been bad though.


#177

Degrey benefited a lot from normal draw, but he also had bad matchups against Jaina and Midori, who both had their ability to deal with his dodges reduced considerably (Midori’s Dragon attacks no longer affect his A dodge, and it’s harder for Jaina to get 10s into her discard pile). Also, stronger characters from 1st ed (e.g. Grave) got nerfed.


#178

This is fascinating stuff! My perspective, as someone who’s watched @mysticjuicer’s videos for a couple of years and only recently started playing the game, is that the “new and improved” Rook is one of the weaker characters in 2nd Edition (though Rooks vs The World demonstrated that a Rook specialist can do well even in his worst matchups), so I naturally assumed that a version of him that had a wonky 3-block that couldn’t knock down and a K throw that couldn’t gobble up normals had to be weak too. Similarly, I assumed that a version of DeGrey that had only a minor tweak (and yomi.wikia.com claims that tweak was chosen specifically so that it would not make a huge difference) would be only barely different in power level. @Jadiel’s reasons why DeGrey improved from the changes to other characters make sense, but it’s interesting to see how a nearly unchanged character went from being “the weakest character by quite a margin” to being banned from the 19XX tournaments alongside Zane & Co.

Edit: Now I want to see a 1st Edition tier list and matchup chart, just to see how different it was from 2nd Edition…


#179

Basically, 1st edition was not as well balanced as second edition.
Mainly because people looked at first edition and saw why it was unbalanced, and thus characters were changed to bring them closer into line.


#180

I guess I just find it interesting how small many of the character specific changes are. A lot of the improved balance seems to have come from either system changes or the interaction between changes to multiple characters. Again, as someone who has until now only seen the end result, it’s fascinating to see how the Yomi that gets played today came to be.