Dusting off this old topic because of some discussion on Discord about how Calamandra might work in Yomi.
[details=Very Long Discord Discussion Inside!]> NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:17 PM
How exactly would Calamandra Moss from #codex play in yomi?
Tossing around a Tiger Uppercut and I suggested 0.1 speed.
What about Tiger assists? We have Kasumi in Tekken to base those off of.
Hobusu - Today at 10:19 PM
I was thinking animal assists in general, but with a focus on tigers.
For example, I think J should be Murkwood Allies (however you want to interpret that).
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:21 PM
Two sides, one that you can pump 3 times with any for as much damage as the other but comes out faster/combos easier?
Hobusu - Today at 10:21 PM
Sounds about right, yeah.
Then Q is Tiger Uppercut (which I’m visualizing as the tiger doing the uppercutting rather than Cala).
GRAG - Today at 10:22 PM
could conceivably have a tiger that works like some combination of 2v2 assist and a Quince thing?
Hobusu - Today at 10:23 PM
@GRAG OK, give me some rough draft of how that might work. I’m curious…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:23 PM
Stalking Tiger/Predator Tiger
GRAG - Today at 10:23 PM
shrug, I dunno ^^
maybe add a Clockwork Soldiers element to it somehow?
landing a super summons a tiger, which can be used at some point later similar to a Quince mirror or 2v2 assist?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:24 PM
maybe has like 10 health but you can use 2s and 3s to attack with it, it takes damage like a Substitute in Pokemon?
GRAG - Today at 10:24 PM
maybe Predator and Stalking tigers each have two different RPS options or something? I dunno
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:24 PM
Hm!
So that’d be…K? A? D?
GRAG - Today at 10:25 PM
could be a separate thing like EX Lum’s side deck
Hobusu - Today at 10:25 PM
I think in that version Predator and Stalking each get their own card, or something.
GRAG - Today at 10:25 PM
she just has two extra cards
Hobusu - Today at 10:25 PM
Or that, I guess.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:27 PM
And she has…what, 65 health alone?
Hobusu - Today at 10:27 PM
No, that’s entirely too low.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:28 PM
yeah.
Hobusu - Today at 10:28 PM
Setsuki has 75, so that’s the bare minimum any character can ever have.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:28 PM
4/5 max level, so he/she definitely keeps up.
Hobusu - Today at 10:28 PM
Menelker’s only tied because of debilitating injury, and that’s everyone in the minimum health club.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:29 PM
Okay.
But relies on…not hiding behind tigers, but for them to even be there for the craziest mixups, combos, and damage.
Hobusu - Today at 10:30 PM
Let’s think about Stalking Tiger.
That doesn’t seem like it would become ongoing on hit to me.
If it hits, then there’s no need to continue stalking, right?
(from IRL tiger’s perspective)
I was thinking that maybe Stalking Tiger (possibly the other too) would become ongoing if the opponent blocks it.
Then it deals extra damage if you hit with certain moves, similar to Oni’s clockwork soldiers, but goes away if… something happens.(edited)
Not sure what makes it go away yet.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:38 PM
Getting dodged or hitting the opponent?
Hobusu - Today at 10:39 PM
That sounds reasonable for a first draft, at least.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:41 PM
Aces though…
Hobusu - Today at 10:42 PM
I think one side of Calamandra’s aces has to be Gigadon.
It’s too iconic to ignore, right?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:44 PM
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAH
Hobusu - Today at 10:45 PM
But how do we capture the variable cost of the Codex version?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:49 PM
…show me the card again?
Hobusu - Today at 10:50 PM
GRAG - Today at 10:51 PM
ace cost is based on current HP?
spend accumulated tigers or frogs to play Gigadon without some sort of penalty?
How does one convert the concept of “board presence” from a CCG-style game into something like a 1v1 fighting game, anyway?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 10:52 PM
Costing less Aces with Tigers and other summons already on the field.
Heh. Cal brings heavier resource management from her game into yomi!
Hobusu - Today at 10:56 PM
If it’s based on summoning other animals, then all of her specials (or at least most of them) are pidgeon-holed into being summons.
GRAG - Today at 10:57 PM
.oO(Calamandra can’t summon pigeons… yet)(edited)
Hobusu - Today at 10:57 PM
Not saying whether that’s good or bad right now, just that it’s the obvious conclusion.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:03 PM
that need not be a bad thing…Cal is the one it word work for best, I would think
With the possible exception of Vandy Anadrose.
Hobusu - Today at 11:05 PM
Yeah, Calamandra’s uniquely positioned to be a good character for this concept.
The question is which animals do we want her to have?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:05 PM
Mostly Tigers.
Hobusu - Today at 11:05 PM
Definitely tigers and frogs, for starters.
You have to have frogs.
I could see her having Barkcoat Bear as well, but that might be too much?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:07 PM
maybe
Carpe - Today at 11:07 PM
If summons is her focus, maybe you can take inspiration from the Patrol Zone
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:08 PM
if she somehow keeps frogs with her…then can she do 1-3 damage unjokerable off a dodge if she sacrifices one?
Hobusu - Today at 11:09 PM
OK, so what if Murkwood Allies let you attach it and any pump cards you use to Calamandra, then you get the unjokerable damage by sacrificing one of the pump cards (or Murkwood Allies itself if you’re out of pump cards).
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:10 PM
Yes!
And use them for any other fun things you use summons for.
Hm…any 2-10 abilities?
Probably a good A-T-D-B spread…maybe a few less throws. More grabs than combo throws (like Lum).
Hobusu - Today at 11:14 PM
OK, what if the damage from summoned animals can be jokered normally, but you can play Behind the Ferns to make it unjokerable?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:15 PM
Also amps it by…2? 3+2?
But then it is your followup with nothing else added.
Otherwise you could still try and combo.
Hobusu - Today at 11:16 PM
It wouldn’t affect tigers, though. Those are too strong in Codex to be affected.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:16 PM
Only frogs!
Sotek - Today at 11:16 PM
don’t try to restrict things to match too tightly if it makes them dumb
Hobusu - Today at 11:17 PM
Fair enough.
It is an amusing thought, though.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:17 PM
This isn’t exactly matching right now. I don’t think.
Interesting ability to go on a 2 though…
Hobusu - Today at 11:19 PM
So Behind the Ferns is a 2 ability that makes Frogs and Tigers (can Murkwood Allies summon a Beast?) unjokerable and lets them deal additional damage.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:25 PM
MA needs some sort of unpumpable big guy…or at least it could. And BtF could just work on frogs, or others too, but effectively yes. But only as a dodge followup.
Hobusu - Today at 11:26 PM
Maybe the Frog side is a fast Ender and the Beast side is a slow Starter that does the same damage in one hit as the Frogs will do without BtF?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:28 PM
so 5+2 jokered or 5+your attack/throw.
and they do 1+1 (+3any) or 4 damage on initial hit.
Sound right?
Hobusu - Today at 11:29 PM
I’m not quite sure which numbers are which there…
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:29 PM
or maybe it doesn’t do dodge followups.
Hobusu - Today at 11:30 PM
To be completely clear, I meant that Beast should do the same in one hit as the maximum number of Frogs would do if all of them hit without Behind the Ferns.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:31 PM
Ah. Uh…
…frogs do 1+1 on initial hit/summon and 3(+2 BtF) dodge followup…beast is 5 and stays to do something?
Hobusu - Today at 11:32 PM
Hm… So if we ignore Ferns for now, you can do a maximum of 4 damage with the frogs when Murkwood Allies hits, then the frogs attach and each do 3 damage as a follow up.
That’s what you’re suggesting right now?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:36 PM
yeah
too much?
I mean you need to think about how fast that can empty a hand
Hobusu - Today at 11:37 PM
True, but I’m just thinking of what can make Beast side not feel useless compared to Frog side.
Frogs can be comboed into, are fast, and can potentially deal up to 20 unjokerable damage from a single Jack (or whatever rank we settle on). On the other hand, Beast can deal 5 damage on hit and comboes into stuff, but that’s not very impressive…
GRAG - Today at 11:39 PM
At this point are we basically just making Jack-O
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:39 PM
well that means all 2s to do 20…
Carpe - Today at 11:39 PM
Pumpkin frogs!
Hobusu - Today at 11:39 PM
I don’t know, GRAG. Are we making Jack-O?
(I’m being serious, BTW.)(edited)
(Don’t know who that is.)
Carpe - Today at 11:40 PM
Jack-O’s whole gimmick is spawning pumpkin houses that summon minions to attack your opponent
Hobusu - Today at 11:40 PM
Oh, okay.
As you do.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:40 PM
it’s basically if we happen to dodge then potential unjokerable damage.
Hm…is Jack-O good flavor here?
Hobusu - Today at 11:41 PM
Right, but have we established what the “faliure state” of these summons is?
Clockwork Soldiers get discarded if you run a face card into a Block, right?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:42 PM
KD?
Hobusu - Today at 11:42 PM
Maybe just getting thrown, since that’s the natural counter to dodging.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:42 PM
get blocked, get dodged? Each one can flee from different things.
Hobusu - Today at 11:43 PM
So the mixup is between Cala cashing in her unjokerable Frogs of Doom and just punching you.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:43 PM
Stalking Tiger runs from getting successfully dodged, remember
yeah!
Hobusu - Today at 11:43 PM
That seems reasonable, then.
So we have two face cards and an ability mostly mapped out, and some idea of the direction we want to take at least one side of her ace.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:45 PM
Should we ask Sirlin if we’re being stupid or if he would have potentially added this if he still could?
Because I think I like the going direction of this.
Hobusu - Today at 11:46 PM
We don’t need to make this official.
Back in 1st edition apparently someone made their own entire cast of Yomi characters, and he was fine with it.
Carpe - Today at 11:46 PM
Oh yeah, I remember seeing that
They even had a poison character
Hobusu - Today at 11:47 PM
I seem to recall that a couple ideas for the Shadows characters came from fan-made characters, too.
Sotek - Today at 11:48 PM
yeah
Gloria. 
Hobusu - Today at 11:48 PM
Also Quince?
Sotek - Today at 11:49 PM
I forget exactly how much of Quince was actually fan-inspired but Gloria’s ace, the thing that makes her a character than functions at all, was entirely fan-inspired, heh.
well, the original version of it.
(The idea of “damage both players”, which is needed for a healing character to not be stupid)
Hobusu - Today at 11:50 PM
Yeah, that was a pretty important part of making her work at all, huh?
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:50 PM
I see.
Sotek - Today at 11:50 PM
yeah lol
Hobusu - Today at 11:50 PM
Though it does make Gloria mirrors fun to watch.
Sotek - Today at 11:50 PM
without that ace she would not have been a possible character.
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:51 PM
Okay, but I’d like to know if it’s good design from a pro standpoint.
Even for craps and laughs.
Carpe - Today at 11:51 PM
The main issue is that healers as stall characters are really aggravating/degenerate, because their entire game is to just negate yours, and Gloria’s Ace lets you convert that healing into an offensive resource. So yeah, pretty crucial.
Hobusu - Today at 11:52 PM
It’s hard to judge until we’ve fleshed it out enough to be playable, honestly.
Carpe - Today at 11:52 PM
A theorycrafted design will almost never be “good” unless you get incredibly lucky. Rule 1 of game design. 
Hobusu - Today at 11:52 PM
@NiGHTcapD {Shyne} Should one of us post what we have on the forums for archival/making sure we’re on the same page?
Carpe - Today at 11:53 PM
The idea definitely sounds interesting enough
NiGHTcapD {Shyne} - Today at 11:54 PM
Yeah. Do it![/details]
This is left “as-is,” except that I made sure nothing was broken (like the link to Gigadon, for example). For now we seem to be closing in on two face cards and a 2* ability, and we have a rough idea of what half of her ace might become.