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[Fan Character] Design Challenge 01: "Thief"

It’s been exactly two months since the topic of a regular “design challenge” for Yomi characters came up, so I figured it was about time to actually do something with the idea!

For this one, I thought that a theme of Thief/Rogue would be good, inspired by @Nopethebard’s post in that thread. We already have a ninja and an assassin in Yomi, but “thief” has a different connotation from those and has potential to lead to interesting new gameplay ideas—after all, none of the existing characters really “steal” anything, so this is unexplored territory.

How would you make a Thief in Yomi? You can try to make a full original character, riff on an existing thief (real or fictional), or even just present a snippet of an idea, like the stealing mechanic from the post linked above. The goal isn’t necessarily for the whole community to make a single character, but rather to explore an idea by seeing it from as many different perspectives as possible.

I’m not going to place a hard time limit on how long each topic can be discussed, but based on this poll I’ll be starting a new topic every two weeks. Please suggest ideas for future themes! I’ve already got one lined up for next time, but I’ll make a poll in the first post of the next thread with the options people suggest here.

2 Likes

Ok, so first, I kinda want a shoto-template and a grappler-template, to make it easy to get the basic form down… So, here’s those:

Proto-Shoto

Hit Points: 90
Max Combo: ●●●●
Normal attack speed: x.6 (x = card rank)
Normal throw speed: x.6 ●● :knockdown:
Normal throw damage: 7
Attacks: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, J*, Q, K, A
Throws: 7*, 8, 9, T*
Blocks: 5, 6, 7*, 8, 9, T*
Dodges: 2, 3, 4

Proto-Grappler

Hit Points: 90
Max Combo: ●●●
Normal attack speed: x.6 (x = card rank)
Normal throw speed: x.2 ●● :knockdown:
Normal throw damage: 8
Attacks: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, J, Q, A
Throws: 2*, 3, 4, 5, 9, T*, K, A
Blocks: 2*, 3, 6, 7, 8
Dodges: 9, T*

Ok, with that out of the way, my thought for a thief is: Howzabout stealing combo points?

The Chronophage

Hit Points: 80
Max Combo: ●●
Normal attack speed: x.4 (x = card rank)
Normal throw speed: x.6 ● :knockdown:
Normal throw damage: 8
Attacks: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, J*, Q, K, A
Throws: 7*, 8, 9, T*
Blocks: 5, 6, 7*, 8, 9, T*
Dodges: 2, 3, 4

Innate: When you hit with an attack or throw, either a) given the opponent two time counters or b) take all the opponents time counters, and add them to your Max Combo Points for this turn. When you are hit with an attack or a throw, the opponent gives you back any number of time counters, and their maximum combo points are reduced by that amount.

I haven’t really thought through what supporting abilities would like like for that innate, though… There’s probably at least one that increases time counters for free, perhaps another that gives a double-or-nothing effect akin to unstable power. I’m also not sure that 2 per hit is the right amount… Just giving 1 per hit felt like it you would average out to fewer combo points than someone like Grave, although maybe it would be ok since you’d be able to hoard them until you have a game-ending burst.

EDIT: I think that aces probably have a Can’t Combo pumpable version, and a 3 or 4 (or 5?) combo point Ender super-AA version that you basically can’t play unless you’ve built up some time counters on the opponent.

3 Likes

I don’t have a full stat block, but a general idea I had is a rush down character who takes Menelker’s “make the opponent discard and draw a card” one step further by having the card the thief makes the opponent give up go to the thief’s hand for his own use. When he uses the card, it goes back to his opponent’s hand.

1 Like

Diego Saint-Carman, Gentleman Thief

Hit Points: 80
Max Combo: ●●●
Normal attack speed: x.2 (x = card rank)
Normal throw speed: x.2 ●● :knockdown:
Normal throw damage: 8
Attacks: 4, 5, 6, 7, J, Q, A
Throws: 2*, 3, 4, 5, 9, T*, K, A
Blocks: 2*, 3, 6, 7, 8
Dodges: 8, 9, T*

Innate: Sleight of Hand At the end of combat, if you dealt damage with a throw this turn, you may have your opponent discard the top card of their deck. If you do, search your deck or discard pile for a card of the same rank and suit as the discarded card, reveal it and put it into your hand. If they discarded a Joker, instead search your deck or discard pile for any non-Joker card, reveal it and put it into your hand.

Command normals:

4 (Golden Touch) – Attack, 2.2 speed, 4 damage, 1 CP Starter

Special moves

J (Calling Card) – Attack, 2.4 speed, 6 (1) damage, 1 CP Linker
Q (Fortune’s Smile) – Attack, +Q, 0.2 speed, 7(2)+7 damage, 2 CP Starter
K (Turn the Tables) – Throw, 8.2 speed, 10 damage, 2 CP Ender

Super moves
AA (Royal Prerogative) – Attack, 1.0 speed, 16 (3) damage, 1 CP Ender
AAA (King of Thieves) – Throw, 0.0 speed, 36 damage, Can’t Combo

Abilities

2 – Heist [End of Turn] Discard a card of the same rank and suit as a card in your opponent’s discard. (Jokers do not have any rank or suit.) Your opponent reveals their hand and you choose a card from it. They discard that card. Search your deck or discard for a card of the same rank and suit as the card they discarded. (Again, Jokers have no rank or suit.) Play this ability only if you didn’t put a card in your hand with Sleight of Hand this turn.

10 – Catch Me If You Can! [Draw Phase] Name a rank and suit. (You cannot name “Joker”, Jokers do not have any rank or suit.) If either player combat-reveals a card of that rank and suit this turn and wins combat with it, they draw three cards and the other player cannot play a combat escape card this turn. If either player combat-reveals a card of that rank and suit and does not win combat, their attacks and throws are 4.0 speed slower next turn.

I was originally going to make Diego a shoto or even rushdown character, but a focus on throws seemed fitting so I thought I’d try to make him something that doesn’t really exist in the game yet – a grappler with low health and fast attacks. That’s also why he has an extra rank of dodges. Hopefully it’s not too broken.

4 Likes

(Man after some reflection there’s so many crazy interactions with stealing your opponent’s cards even if they’re not Aces. I lol’d a bit thinking about the BBB matchup. I’ve been changing things.)

Cockatoo Centenary, Beastkin Burglar

Hit Points: 80
Max Combo: ●●●●●
Normal attack speed: x.2 (x = card rank)
Normal throw speed: x.4 ●●● :knockdown:
Normal throw damage: 6
Attacks: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, J, Q, A
Throws: 7, 8, 9, T*, K*
Blocks: 6, 7, 8, 9
Dodges: 2, 3, 4, 5, T*, A*

(Setsuki distribution.)

Innates

  • Pick Pocket: If you successfully block an attack you may discard your block to draw a card from the top of the opponent’s deck. You must reveal the drawn card. If that card is a Joker or an Ace it must be discarded.

  • Shinies: During the power up phase you may power up for non-Ace Diamond cards in any discard.

  • Oblivion Realm: When you use an opponent’s card and it is supposed to be sent to the discard banish it from play instead.

Abilities

  • 10* : Mimicry [Draw Phase] : Ongoing: You gain the opponent’s Innate(s). Discard this when you get hit by an attack or throw.

  • K*: Flight of the Galah: When you hit with this card, draw a card from the top of the opponent’s deck. You must reveal the drawn card. If that card is a Joker or an Ace it must be discarded.

  • A*: Another’s Treasure: During Combat (Dodge Side): If you dodge an attack or joker with this, don’t play a follow up card. Your opponent takes 6 damage and is knocked down, then you may also take any non-Joker or non-Ace from their discard pile. Return this card to your hand when combat ends unless you were thrown.

Special Moves / Super Moves

  • J+J (Stone of Ardra) - Attack, 4.8 Speed, 8+8(5) Damage, 2 CP Starter
  • J (Parrot Shot) - Attack, 2.4 Speed, 7(2) Damage, 1 CP Ender
  • Q (Fox’s Ropedart) - Attack, 1.4 Speed, 5 Damage, 1 CP Linker
  • K* (Flight of the Galah) - Throw, 10.6 Speed, 9 Damage, Can’t Combo :knockdown:
  • AA+A+A (Critical Hit) - Attack, 0.6 Speed, 14+8+8 Damage, 2 CP Ender
  • A* (Another’s Treasure) - Dodge

I just noticed I missed an opportunity to make Joker from Smash.

Pros: Strong + Efficient early game dodge/throw with Ace + K. 1.4 Attack starter + 7.4 throw starter without opponent’s cards. Can recur own options. Can gain strong options through stealing, some of which negate character weaknesses. Seems dangerous on a large hand, even though late game dodge is lacking. Unjokerable A dodge. Cons: On attack this character has low damage efficiency. This requires lots of cards and this character has poor block distribution. “Lowish” throw damage. Doesn’t have a strong engine to get Jokers reliably. Drawing cards from the opponent’s deck doesn’t guarantee good cards + accelerates their deck.

Fixing stuff still, but current theoretical matchups so I know what to fix. This character looks very lopsided right now. There’s a lot of reasons for why I put stuff, but its not important enough to fully analyze and way too in-depth when the character is still being tweaked so much. ex. Stealing Zane’s innate, but realizing how good he does against Valerie [lack of damage efficiency until late game] /Quince [how expensive it is].
6-4 :argagarg: :bbb: :persephone: 5.5-4.5 :geiger: :gloria: :grave: :jaina: 5-5 :degrey: :lum: :onimaru: :quince: :vendetta: 4.5-5.5 :gwen: :midori: :menelker: :setsuki: :valerie: 4-6 :rook: :troq: :zane:

2 Likes

Really rough stuff so far, but I want to make sure I get the core idea down. I need to think hard about where this ability leads and what kind of power it has.

Corva, Shadowshifter

Hit Points: 90
Max Combo: ●●●●
Normal attack speed: x.8 (x = card rank)
Normal throw speed: x.6 ●● :knockdown:
Normal throw damage: 8
Shadows: 3, 8*, J, A
Attacks: 2, 4, 5, 6, J, Q, K*
Throws: 7*, 8*, 9, T, A
Blocks: 5, 6, 7*, 9, T
Dodges: 2, 3, 4

Innate: Shadowmeld. When you combat-reveal a “Shadow”, immediately discard your combat card and replace it with the top card of your opponent’s discard pile, turned to the side of your choice. If your opponent has no discard pile, or if you do not meet the requirements to play the card, you instead play no-card.

Abilities:

  • 7: Preparation [Draw Phase]: reveal the top 5 cards of your deck and take all Shadows revealed into your hand. Discard the rest.
  • 8: Shadowstep [During Combat (Shadow Side)]: if you played this as a Shadow and steal an attack or throw, that attack or throw is 3.0 speed faster, to a minimum of 1.0.
  • J: Intercept [During Combat (Attack Side)]: if you played this as an attack and your opponent revealed a throw, draw two cards.
  • K: Flurry of Knives [Draw Phase]: Ongoing. You can pump with cards from your discard pile (banish them afterwards). Discard this when you combat-reveal a Shadow or your attack is blocked.

Special/Super Moves

  • J*+J (Phase Strike) - Attack, 3.0 speed, 4+7(2) Damage, 2 CP Linker
  • Q (Twilight Spike) - Attack, 0.2 speed, 8(4) Damage, 3 CP Ender
  • K+K+K+K (Blade Dance) - Attack, 3.8 speed, 8+9(2) Damage, 2 CP Ender
  • AA (Midnight Garrote) - Throw, 8.0 Speed, 16 damage, Can’t Combo
2 Likes

I’d been thinking the same thing, and while I don’t have a full character I do have some pieces (more inspired by Persona 5 than Smash):

Joker, Phantom Thief of Hearts

Hold Up (innate)

During the End Phase, if the opponent is knocked down, you may choose to end their knockdown and use one of the following:

  • The opponent must give you a face card (Jack, Queen, or King) of your choice from their hand or reveal their hand if they can’t. Cards taken this way are called Personas and are placed on the table in front of you. You may not choose a rank if you already have that rank as a Persona. If the opponent cannot give you a card, search your discard for a non-Joker card and put it in your hand.
  • Play a pair of Aces to hit the opponent with All-Out Attack. The opponent may play a combo escape card as if you had won combat with your Ace attack.

Persona (innate)

When you play the Persona side of one of your face cards, treat it as if it had the stats and abilities of the corresponding Persona. The side of the Persona that faces the opponent determines the stats and abilities used. You may freely rotate your Personas during the Draw Phase, but cannot rotate them at any other time.

AA – All-Out Attack
10+15 (+2 Ace) damage
This attack can only be played during a Hold Up (it cannot be used in normal combat).

Notes and Thoughts

Came up with this over the course of a couple of hours, and I’m not sure where to take him from here (I’m not even sure whether he should be closer to a shoto or a rushdown character, or something else entirely). I know that Joker’s methods of knocking down the opponent need to be carefully balanced so it’s not too easy to get the opponent in a Hold Up but doesn’t feel impossible either. One idea I had was a move that does relatively low damage but can be pumped with up to 3 of any card and knocks down if fully pumped (inspired by the Down Shot ability from Persona 5, where using all of the rounds in Joker’s gun lets him down an enemy).

As for how abilities work on stolen cards, I think it’s best if they all work as long as you can meet any prerequisites. Thus, Joker can’t use any of Midori’s Dragon attacks because they say “Requires Dragon form” on them, but he could use one of BBB’s moves to deal damage at range (if it’s turned to the side that works at range, of course). He can’t spin Quince’s cards because that’s innate, and if he gets a black face card from Menelker it can’t trigger Bleeding Wounds, but he can return his Jacks to hand using Grave’s Lightning Trap ability.

Any of these character concepts that involve stealing cards seem like they’ll result in very interesting matchups due to the nature of being able to use the opponent’s moves against them while still not being a mirror match, but this Persona system is unique from the others because it allows for permanent copying of a limited number of things instead of temporary use of a larger number of things. Some matchups will be very interesting indeed, like grapplers having to be more careful with their throw speeds if Joker takes their special throws, characters with KD enders potentially getting into Hold Ups more often because he can suddenly combo into KD, and so on.

Where I think Joker (and any card-stealing character in this topic) could be especially interesting is in 2v2, where you can potentially mix and match between both of your opponents’ moves. Imagine if you could get both Zane’s Anarch Crusher and Setsuki’s Ninpo Flash, letting you potentially do 18 and KD (or a Hold Up) off of a 0.0 speed attack even if Joker has only 4 combo points, without even having to tag to his partner! There are a lot of crazy combos that could potentially be done with the moves of four characters (Joker, the two he’s copying from, and Joker’s partner), so just for that reason alone I want to develop him more at some point.


I’ll be posting a new topic tomorrow! Don’t forget I’m looking for theme suggestions for the future, too.

1 Like

Physical space isn’t an issue there, but you could save space on the character card by just putting the entire All-Out Attack on AA. “When you activate Hold Up, you may instead hit the opponent with this attack. All-Out Attack cannot be combat-revealed.”

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Makes sense, it ended up in that order because that’s basically the way things were organized in my mind (there’s two options, so put them on the character card, oh wait I’d better make sure they can’t All-Out Attack outside of Hold Up since that would be inaccurate to P5 and I want to emphasize knockdowns as much as possible). If I continue working on Joker I’ll probably make that change, although “cannot be combat-revealed” isn’t enough because I don’t want it dodged into either.

1 Like

You land knock down and Life Will Change

2 Likes

How dare you make me listen to this excellent music

1 Like

The soundtrack will Steal your Heart.

2 Likes