[Casual] Dwarddd MonoGrey vs Zhavier MonoBlack

Codex Codex play-by-forum
41

Sorry for being so slow here, not sure how so much time passed without me posting… I hope you still have time to finish this game :slight_smile:

I think I see what you are thinking: you want to use the way the effect ends as a slight debuff as this is a card which might actually be used even if it doesn’t kill stuff that turn? That was why i suggested it deals dmg like a burn spell so it can’t ignore armour, I think the cards are pretty equivalent on overall quality but I quite like being able to dmg my own units if there are none of yours to target because of the synergy with healing (combos r cool).

P2T2

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Bone wyvern
Priest

STARTING HAND
Arcadian Double
Stepping Stone Villain
Fantassin
Shining Prince
Doomed Peasant

WORKERS
Gentle Giant
Shining Prince

NextHand

Bone wyvern
Underequipped Soldier(2/3) shield, i pay one when this dies
Pivot
Arcadian Double

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($6)
Worker - ($5)
Tech 1 - ($4)
Neshamah - ($2)
Peasant - ($1)
SS Villain - ($0)

Float ($0)
Discard 2, reshuffle, draw 4

Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Neshamah(1/3a) attacking units swiftly take 1dmg and have -1atk
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger: Doomed Peasant(1/1) hire 0/1 on death
  • :pschip: Technician: Stepping Stone Villain(1/1) dies: trash
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Dwarven Supplies(Arrives, Pay 1, or tap this and a friendly unit --> put a weapon rune on this (max 3). Tap: Remove all runes. Give a friendly tech 0 or 1 unit that much attack this turn.) 1 rune

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 19
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 3
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 7
42

No worries on delay.

So, Neshamah being betteer than Debilitator Alpha just seems mean. I get that DA is kinda junk, but Neshamah is just infinitely better for 2g at the very beginning of the game.

P1T3

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Dark Pact
Gargoyle

STARTING HAND
Skeletal Archery
Shadow Blade
Thieving Imp
Hooded Executioner

WORKERS
Summon Skeletons
Jandra, the Negator
Skeletal Archery

NextHand

Graveyard
Gargoyle
Sacrifice the Weak
Deteriorate

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float - ($7)
Worker - ($6)
Shadow Blade Doomed Peasant, you discard #2 - ($3)
Haunt kills Undead Token
Midband Vandy - ($1)

Float ($1)
Discard 2, draw 3, reshuffle, draw 1

Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Skeleton Javelineer 1/1+A, no rune
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger:
  • :pschip: Technician: Poisonblade Rogue 2/1
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Pestering Haunt 1/1
  • Vandy 3/4, lvl 3

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 4
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 1
  • Workers: 7
43

Yep I see your point with that comparison, Neshamah does have a lvl 5 midband and is crap at combat the whole time though. I think a pretty good solution here would be to move one of the effects to his midband? I’m leaning towards moving the -1atk to his midband/

P2T3

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Goblin Sapper
Drow Mighty

STARTING HAND
Pivot
Underequipped Soldier(2/3) shield, i pay one when this dies
Arcadian Double
Bone wyvern

WORKERS
Gentle Giant
Shining Prince
Pivot

NextHand

Fantassin
Arcadian Double
Choose Fate
Priest

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid+scav, discard #2 - ($8)
Worker - ($7)
Tech 2, Ugly - ($3)
tap supplies give villain 1 extra atk
villain kills SQL
Neshamah kills rogue

Float ($3)
Discard 2, draw 3, reshuffle, draw 1

Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader:
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger:
  • :pschip: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Dwarven Supplies(Arrives, Pay 1, or tap this and a friendly unit --> put a weapon rune on this (max 3). Tap: Remove all runes. Give a friendly tech 0 or 1 unit that much attack this turn.) 0 runes
  • Neshamah(1/1) attacking units swiftly take 1dmg and have -1atk

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 19
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 5

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 5
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 3
  • Workers: 8
Thoughts

hmm, teching wyvern was dumb because of sac the weak - the penalty is big enough the chance of him having it is too big; also i think it’s more of a P1 card

actually if I skip a worker and use all my cards i could kill vandy, but idk if it’s worth it

44

Its actually the swift strike damage that is so problematic. The only other hero with swift strike is Setsuki, but it only functinos on attack, and only at midband. The version where it only functions on defense seems like it should at least similarly be a midband ability. The -1 attack DA ability by itself could be a startband, but it is definitely stronger than any other heroes starting ability.

As another example, Setsuki costs 1g to attack. If I pay the price, I can attack setsuki. Nash, on the other hand, even if I want to pay the price of losing weenies, I cant attack no matter what. It even works on Nullcraft, which seems like a real kick in the pants to Purple.

45

P1T4

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Metamorphosis
Blackhand Dozer

STARTING HAND
Deteriorate
Graveyard
Sacrifice the Weak
Gargoyle
Thieving Imp

WORKERS
Summon Skeletons
Jandra, the Negator
Skeletal Archery
Graveyard

NextHand

Dark Pact
Metamorphosis
Skeleton Javelineer
Shadow Blade
Hooded Executioner

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float - ($8)
Worker - ($7)
Vandy kills Nesh, vandy to max, nothing to doom
Thieving Imp, discard 2 of 4 - ($4)
Tech 2 Demonology - ($0)
Haunt pings your Tech 2

Float ($0)
Discard 3, draw 3, reshuffle, draw 2

Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader:
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger:
  • :pschip: Technician: Thieving Imp 2/2
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Pestering Haunt 1/1
  • Vandy 4/5, lvl 5

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 5 (Demonology)

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 5
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 8
46

So our idea was that against units he’s better than your average hero but against heroes he’s much worse (all other 1/3 heroes have a decent starting ability and/or rank up quicker than Nessie). You think that the swift strike negating all weenie attacks is too good against units, but it’s the same as -1 ATK for the majority of 1hp units (as in they also have 1atk) and it’s worse than a -1atk against anything with >1hp (against those Nessie acts like a 2/3 hero, and not a very good one by his levelling/future stats).
If you think the -1atk could just about be a startband, then -1hp on attacking is arguably a better fit. (I don’t actually mind which way round they go, just how I see it)
What about if Nessie actually had to be able to deal his 1 swift dmg, as in NC and long-range dodge it, and swift killers only take the 1?

P2T4

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Goblin Sapper
Goblin Sapper

STARTING HAND
Choose Fate
Priest
Fantassin
Arcadian Double
Doomed Peasant(1/1) hire 0/1 on death
Goblin Sapper

WORKERS
Gentle Giant
Shining Prince
Pivot
Fantassin

NextHand

Underequipped Soldier(2/3) shield, i pay one when this dies
Arcadian Double

Discard

Doomed Peasant(1/1) hire 0/1 on death
Choose Fate

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float, discard #2 - ($11)
Hire Catherine - ($9)
Choose Fate, reshuffle in discard, draw 2 then discard - ($8)
Goblin Sapper - ($6)
Priest - ($4)
Tower - ($1)
worker - ($0)
Goblin hits your tech 2 and sabotages it

Float ($0)
Discard 0, draw 2

Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Priest(3/3a)
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger:
  • :pschip: Technician: L1 Catherine(2/3) Struggle
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Dwarven Supplies(Arrives, Pay 1, or tap this and a friendly unit --> put a weapon rune on this (max 3). Tap: Remove all runes. Give a friendly tech 0 or 1 unit that much attack this turn.) 0 runes
  • Goblin Sapper(2/2) dies: detonate sabateur runes for 2dmg, damages a building: place a sabateur rune

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 19
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 4
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 2
  • Deck: 4
  • Disc: 2

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 9
47

Thanks for all this feedback btw! I do think there is a risk of falling into the traps you point out earlier when looking at specific cards though - our initial play testing experience with grey was that it was weak monocolour against most things (it went 0 for 6 in its first 6 games if I remember), so we did create powerful cards, as well as leaving some weak ones (eg choose fate is a highly situational spell and often first workered, nessie is good but at least one of his spells is very very slow). Comparing anything to Debilitator Alpha seems like the same trap as comparing starter spells to Charge in reverse - it’s particularly weak, so makes things look strong. I’d be really interested in hearing what you thought of overall balance as well as particular cards!

1 Like
48

This 0/6 streak, was it against a particular monocolor? Also, was it with the current rendition? Same player on grey? Seems like that’s not really a clear sample of power level.

Yup, DA is pretty awful, but its primarily awful because of the point in the game at which you play it. Having that ability right off is substantially better, which was my main point. The value of any one thing is in relation to what can be done by other things at that tech level. Goblin Sapper is about 100% more powerful than Disguised Monkey (same cost) or Chameleon Lizzo (this should be more powerful). The easiest fix would be taking away haste or stealth and maybe being 3/3, or changing the runes to 1 dmg. Another option would be requiring the sapper to tap to blow up the runes, rather than being tied to his death. Yet another would be that if he attacks a building, he dies, but does extra damage in the way air hammer or rambaster or steam tank does. Or yet another would be Crash Bomber, dies, depends on whos turn it is for what effect.

I also think you underestimate the significant situational advantage of choose fate as compared with lawful search. Same cost, lawful search gets to look at a hand, choose fate gets to ignore the draw/discard dynamic of tech choices. There is significantly more power inherent in being able to tech and then guarantee a chance at that draw (2 chances even), while lawful search gives you that chance only when your draw pile is exactly empty. Admittedly, both spells are very situational, but the comparison stands. Situational is exactly how codex limits power of cards.

P1T5

Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Shrine of Forbidden Knowledge
Soul Stone

STARTING HAND
Shadow Blade
Hooded Executioner
Dark Pact
Metamorphosis
Skeleton Javelineer
Blackhand Dozer
Poisonblade Rogue

WORKERS
Summon Skeletons
Jandra, the Negator
Skeletal Archery
Graveyard

NextHand

Deteriorate
Metamorphosis
Gargoyle
Sacrifice the Weak
Shrine of Forbidden Knowledge

Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($8)
Dark Pact
Garth - ($6)
Haunt Pings Priest
Shadow Blade Priest, discard 2 of 2 - ($3)
Vandy kills Catherine, Garth to lvl 3
Imp trades with Sapper, my Tech 2 to 1hp
Tower - ($0)

Float ($0)
Discard 5, draw 3, reshuffle, draw 2

Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader:
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger: Garth 1/3, lvl 3
  • :pschip: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Vandy 4/2, lvl 5

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 18
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 1 (Demonology)
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 9
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 8
49

As for overall power level of grey, I think I’d need a few more games and with more colors than black to really get it. But as it stands, I’m leaning towards it is balanced to be as good or better than most monocolors. This is largely due to having greater flexibility in options within each spec and across each spec than most monocolors have.

50

hey, I’m really sorry about the lack of reply, heads up I probably won’t be active again till the 18th but thought I should let you know I haven’t forgotten if you want to continue. (equally I know that’s kinda close to christmas, but I don’t want to say something like “I’ll reply quickly for the next week” because nothing has really changed from the last two weeks so I expect I’d still be slow)

51

No worries, we can continue whenever.