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[BALANCE TESTING] FrozenStorm (Black + Vandy Ban) vs NekoAtl (Blue)

So as was suggested in the blue balancing thread, we’ve had a suggestion from Sirlin to see if “Black without Vandy” evens this matchup out.

@Nekoatl here’s what I’ll propose: a 6-game series (three on P1 three on P2 for both of us) where we remove Vandy & all her spells, then a subsequent 6-game series where we bring Vandy back but take Garth out w/ all his spells.

My prediction is Black might win one game out of the 6 in both cases, which is a huge swing from the 9-1 or 10-0 that Black vs Blue is currently.

After those two series, if you’re still down to try things, I think we swap Vandy for “Troq as a black hero”, with Vandy’s spells still in, and see if that’s closer to 5-5 (Similarly I think we could just make Vandy midband at 4 and maxband at 7 and it’d tone things down to 6-4)

Sound like a plan?

3 Likes

I don’t mind running 6 games without Garth, but I don’t understand why you want to. I also think there might be value in a 6-game run with “Troq as a Black hero”, but with Bashing spells rather than Demonology. I’m not sure what the best approach is. Maybe we should see how the 6 game run with Vandy removed entirely goes, then discuss where to go from there?

2 Likes

Mainly to control for whether Vandy or Garth is more important to the matchup, and also get an idea for how much just removing a hero entirely affects play.

That sounds like the best plan tbh, so let’s go from there. I’ll post a turn one shortly, GL HF!

1 Like

Perhaps just having Vandy reach each level band when Troq does would be a good test for the future, Sirlin also mentioned that if Vandy turns out to be too strong a good first thing to test would be having her max at Lv 8. I’m not as much a fan of making Troq a black hero because then it’s harder to tell whether the higher cost or the changed abilities is having the most effect on things.

Regardless of what you decide to do in the future, I look forward to seeing the results of this!

2 Likes

Game 1, Player 1, Turn 1

P1 Black but no Vandy or her Spells vs P2 Blue

Starting Hand

Skeletal Archery
Pestering Haunt
Thieving Imp
Skeleton Javelineer
Deteriorate

Events of Turn:


Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (4)
  • Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards

Main:

  • Garth (2)
  • Pestering Haunt (2)
  • Skeleton Javelineer (1)
  • Worker (0)
Workers

Skeletal Archery

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 2 Draw 4
  • Tech 2 cards before my next turn

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader:
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger:
  • :exhaust: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Garth (1/3 lvl 1)
  • Pestering Haunt (1/1)
  • Skeleton Javelineer (1/1)

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 1
  • Disc: 2

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 5

End of Turn Hand

Sacrifice the Weak
Poisonblade Rogue
Summon Skeletons
Graveyard

End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts

This is totally uncharted territory, I’m expecting to get crushed but I guess we’ll see!


2 Likes

P2T1


StartingHand Workers

STARTING HAND
Reputable Newsman
Lawful Search
Porkhand Magistrate
Traffic Director
Jail


WORKERS
Jail


NextHand

Building Inspector
Manufactured Truth
Arrest
Bluecoat Musketeer
Spectral Aven


Discard

Reputable Newsman
Porkhand Magistrate
Lawful Search


Tech 0 card(s)
Get Paid - ($5)
Worker - ($4)
Traffic Director - ($3)
Tower - ($0)

Float ($0)
Discard 3, draw 5


Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Traffic Director (1/1A) Untargetable
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger:
  • :pschip: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 0
  • Disc: 3

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 6

Thoughts

If he’s committing to Garth, I don’t need to worry about Orpal infecting Onimaru, but I don’t expect Onimaru to land a kill anytime soon, even if I play him. It’s tempting to drop the Newsman now, because I can’t guarantee another shot at him before a Lich’s Bargain lands, but as P2, the Newsman might not survive unless I sacrifice a hero to protect it. Better to leave the threat of a P2 Newsman play and do something else for now, I think. SQL Director can guarantee the Tower’s survival (barring a worker skip), and should discourage attacks in general… in which case maybe I can start to field some aggression.

Game 1, Player 1, Turn 2

P1 Black but no Vandy or her Spells vs P2 Blue

Starting Hand

Sacrifice the Weak
Poisonblade Rogue
Summon Skeletons
Graveyard

Events of Turn:


Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (5)
  • Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards

Bone Collector x2


Main:

  • Graveyard (3)
  • Haunt slams into TD, Garth kills it
  • Summon a skeleton (2)
  • Worker (1)
  • Tech1 (0)
Workers

Poisonblade Rogue, Skeletal Archery

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 2 Draw 1 rs Draw 3
  • Tech 2 cards before my next turn

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • Tech1 HP: 5

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Skeleton (1/1)
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger:
  • :exhaust: Technician: Skeleton Javelineer (1/1)
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Garth (1/1 lvl 1)
  • Graveyard (3hp, holding Pestering Haunt)

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 3
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 6

End of Turn Hand

Jandra, the Negator
Deteriorate
Sacrifice the Weak
Bone Collector

End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts

I feel like no matter what I do, I’m probably just playing to balance against Judgment Day. Having no combat hero is rough in this matchup, same with no Meta plan to counter that. I spose Death and Decay is my next best option, so maybe I’m playing for that? That or Zarra anyway.

So for now, I think, I’m just spamming skeletons to force the Judgment day while making steady progress closer to either DnD or Zarra.


P2T2


Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Brave Knight
Spectral Flagbearer


STARTING HAND
Spectral Aven
Arrest
Bluecoat Musketeer
Building Inspector
Manufactured Truth


WORKERS
Jail
Building Inspector


NextHand

Reputable Newsman
Arrest
Lawful Search
Spectral Aven
Porkhand Magistrate


Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($6)
Worker - ($5)
Bluecoat Musketeer - ($3)
Tech I - ($2)

Float ($2)
Discard 3, reshuffle, draw 5


Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader:
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger: Bluecoat Musketeer (1/2) Long-range
  • :pschip: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 5
  • Deck: 4
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 2
  • Workers: 7

Thoughts

I’ll aim for a Flagbearer to divert Deteriorate and make room for playing the Aven (likely to be countered by a Crawler, but at least that costs $1 to activate). Also taking a Brave Knight for Manufactured Truth combos.

Game 1, Player 1, Turn 3

P1 Black but no Vandy or her Spells vs P2 Blue

Starting Hand

Jandra, the Negator
Deteriorate
Sacrifice the Weak
Bone Collector

Events of Turn:


Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (6)
  • Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards

Blackhand Dozer, Death and Decay
Bone Collector x2


Main:

  • Bone Collector (4)
  • Deteriorate Musketeer, skeleton trades with him, you get 1g
  • Replay Haunt
  • Make a skeleton (3)
  • Worker (2)
  • Hero’s Hall (0)
Workers

Poisonblade Rogue, Skeletal Archery

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 1 Draw 3
  • Tech 2 cards before my next turn

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • Tech1 HP: 5
  • Hero’s Hall HP: 4

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader:
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger: Skeleton (1/1)
  • :exhaust: Technician: Skeleton Javelineer (1/1)
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Garth (1/1 lvl 1)
  • Bone Collector (3/3)
  • Pestering Haunt (1/1)
  • Graveyard (3hp )

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 3
  • Deck: 0
  • Disc: 4

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 7

End of Turn Hand

Bone Collector
Thieving Imp
Summon Skeletons

End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts

Very strong chance of Judgment Day or Injunction here IMO, so gonna get a hero’s hall. I’ll tech a DnD now as well, just in case, and a Dozer if I get to tech up.


P2T3


Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Flagstone Garrison
Flagstone Garrison


STARTING HAND
Lawful Search
Reputable Newsman
Spectral Aven
Porkhand Magistrate
Arrest


WORKERS
Jail
Building Inspector
Arrest


NextHand

Brave Knight
Spectral Flagbearer
Manufactured Truth


Discard

Bluecoat Musketeer
Lawful Search
Flagstone Garrison
Flagstone Garrison


Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid + float + Scavenger - ($10)
Worker - ($9)
Spectral Aven - ($7)
Porkhand Magistrate - ($4)
Reputable Newsman: $2 blocked - ($2)
Bigby Hayes - ($0)

Float ($0)
Discard 1, draw 3


Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Porkhand Magistrate (2/3A)
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger:
  • :pschip: Technician: L1 Bigby Hayes (2/3)
  • :target: Lookout: Spectral Aven (2/2) Flying, resist 1

In Play:

  • Reputable Newsman (0/3) $2 blocked

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 3
  • Deck: 1
  • Disc: 4

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 8

Thoughts

Looks like a Skeleton army strat? Not often I see one of those attempted; looking forward to it. Deteriorate is guaranteed not to be in hand, which allows some leeway. I’m dropping my hand size hard, which means I’ll need to recover some of that, and soon. Garrisons are probably the best options, so I’ll commit to them now and leave my next-turn tech choices to flexibility respond to whatever gets played next turn. My defense strategy this turn needs to include a hero, and that hero may die, so I’ll offer up Onimaru as a sacrifice. Hopefully, seeing the Aven will either provoke some caution or provoke an early Garth maxband and delay his Tech II. Actually, with that in mind, I’ll field Bigby instead, lest he deliberately leave Onimaru alive while turtling and teching up, with no fear of Injunction.

Here is right about where not having Vandy starts to feel really bad.

Game 1, Player 1, Turn 4

P1 Black but no Vandy or her Spells vs P2 Blue

Starting Hand

Bone Collector
Thieving Imp
Summon Skeletons

Events of Turn:


Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (7)
  • Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards

Plague Spitter, Death Rites
Blackhand Dozer, Death and Decay
Bone Collector x2


Main:

  • Bone Collector + Pestering Haunt trade with Porky, I get a skeleton
  • Replay Bone Collector from the grave (5)
  • Garth to level 5, hit bigby and take 3 (1)
  • Skeleton trades with Bigby, you draw 1, Garth maxbands and fetches a Plague Spitter
  • Worker (0)
Workers

Summon Skeletons, Poisonblade Rogue, Skeletal Archery

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 2 rs Draw 4
  • Tech 2 cards before my next turn

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • Tech1 HP: 5
  • Hero’s Hall HP: 4

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Plague Spitter (3/3+1armor)
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger: Skeleton (1/1)
  • :exhaust: Technician: Skeleton Javelineer (1/1)
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Garth (3/4 lvl 7)
  • Bone Collector (3/3)
  • Graveyard (3hp, holding Pestering Haunt )

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 3
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 8

End of Turn Hand

Bone Collector
Sacrifice the Weak
Blackhand Dozer
Deteriorate

End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts

Aven is yucky and I showed my hand last turn using Deteriorate… Fear alone might have deterred it.

I can give up the ghost with Garth and just tech up, that might be my best play. On the other hand, I can get him maxbanded and snatch a Twlight Baron or Plague Spitter, and that sets me up pretty well also… I could probably grab Death Rites too, and just start slamming while I get Orpal into endgame range.

I like the Plague Spitter route, let’s do that.


1 Like

P2T4


Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Overeager Cadet
Overeager Cadet


STARTING HAND
Brave Knight
Manufactured Truth
Spectral Flagbearer
Traffic Director


WORKERS
Jail
Building Inspector
Arrest
Traffic Director


NextHand

Porkhand Magistrate
Bluecoat Musketeer
Overeager Cadet
Spectral Aven


Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($8)
Worker - ($7)
General Onimaru - ($5)
Manufactured Truth, Aven was really a Spitter! - ($4)
“Spitter” sacrifices itself to reduce Spitter to a 1/1
Tech II: Peace - ($0)

Float ($0)
Discard 2, reshuffle, draw 4


Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: L1 General Onimaru (2/3A) Frenzy 1
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger:
  • :pschip: Technician: Reputable Newsman (0/3) $2 blocked
  • :target: Lookout:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 5 (Peace)
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 7
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 9

Thoughts

Boo, Plague Spitters have anti-air. Looks like I can protect my Tech II, barring use of his ult, so I’ll gamble on getting a Garrison or two deployed next turn.

Game 1, Player 1, Turn 5

P1 Black but no Vandy or her Spells vs P2 Blue

Starting Hand

Bone Collector
Sacrifice the Weak
Blackhand Dozer
Deteriorate

Events of Turn:


Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (8)
  • Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards

Nether Drain, Death and Decay
Plague Spitter, Death Rites
Blackhand Dozer, Death and Decay
Bone Collector x2


Main:

  • Orpal + lvl 4 (3)
  • Bone Collector and a skeleton kill Oni, Orpal maxbands, I get a skeleton
  • Replay Pestering Haunt from graveyard
  • Bone Collector from hand (1)
  • Garth kills newsman, you draw 1
  • Worker (0)
Workers

Blackhand Dozer, Summon Skeletons, Poisonblade Rogue, Skeletal Archery

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 2 Draw 3 rs Draw 1
  • Tech 2 cards before my next turn

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • Tech1 HP: 5
  • Hero’s Hall HP: 4

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader:
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger: Skeleton (1/1)
  • :exhaust: Technician: Skeleton Javelineer (1/1)
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Garth (3/3 lvl 7)
  • Orpal (2/5 lvl 6)
  • Bone Collector (3/3)
  • Plague Spitter (1/1)
  • Pestering Haunt (1/1)
  • Graveyard (3hp, holding Bone Collector)

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 3
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 9

End of Turn Hand

Death and Decay
Thieving Imp
Death Rites
Deteriorate

End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts

Surprised he would give up his Aven like that… but I guess it sorta makes sense. Tech 2 Peace isn’t super surprising, but I’m going to make him have Free Speech or lose. If he does, fine, rush tech 3. If not, though… :skull_and_crossbones: time to play some DnD


Orpal only goes up to level 6. Also, it looks like you paid for 4 levels, but not the $2 to summon him?

Sorry, I got 8 gold and can’t do math lol. Orpal + 3 levels is midband, or level 4, and that maxes him at 6

1 Like

P2T5


Tech StartingHand Workers

TECH
Drill Sergeant
Drill Sergeant


STARTING HAND
Overeager Cadet
Bluecoat Musketeer
Porkhand Magistrate
Spectral Aven
Brave Knight


WORKERS
Jail
Building Inspector
Arrest
Traffic Director
Bluecoat Musketeer


NextHand

Manufactured Truth
Flagstone Garrison
Overeager Cadet
Spectral Flagbearer


Discard

Reputable Newsman
Spectral Aven
Porkhand Magistrate
Drill Sergeant
Drill Sergeant


Tech 2 card(s)
Get Paid - ($9)
Worker - ($8)
Brave Knight - ($5)
Overeager Cadet
Bigby Hayes - ($3)
Sirus Quince - ($1)

Float ($1)
Discard 2, draw 4


Board Info:
In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader: Brave Knight (3/3A) Readiness, cowardly
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :ps_: Scavenger: L1 Sirus Quince (1/3)
  • :pschip: Technician: Overeager Cadet (2/2)
  • :target: Lookout: Mirror Illusion (0/1) Resist 1

In Play:

  • L1 Bigby Hayes (2/3)

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • :heart: Tech I HP: 5
  • :heart: Tech II HP: 5 (Peace)
  • :heart: Tower HP: 4

Economy Info:
Cards:

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 2
  • Disc: 5

Gold:

  • Gold: 1
  • Workers: 10

Thoughts

Tech draw, you let me down. Aiming for Drill Sergeants to counteract Disease. I might lose to Death and Decay before I get the chance, though. There’s not really anything I can do about it at the moment, however, except hope it doesn’t land.

Garth OP stall

Game 1, Player 1, Turn 6

P1 Black but no Vandy or her Spells vs P2 Blue

Starting Hand

Death and Decay
Thieving Imp
Death Rites
Deteriorate

Events of Turn:


Upkeep:

  • Get Gold (9)
  • Tech 2 cards in (except turn 1)
All Teched Cards

Plague Spitter, Gargoyle
Nether Drain, Death and Decay
Plague Spitter, Death Rites
Blackhand Dozer, Death and Decay
Bone Collector x2


Main:

  • Death and Decay, all your stuff dies, your tech buildings and tower go to critical, base takes 3 (1)
  • Pestering Haunt destroys tower, your base to 15
  • Replay Haunt
  • Orpal breaks your tech 2, your base to 13
  • Skeletons break your tech 1, your base to 11
  • Garth BC and Plague Spitter hit your base to 4
  • Worker (0)
Workers

Death Rites, Blackhand Dozer, Summon Skeletons, Poisonblade Rogue, Skeletal Archery

  • :pspurpleshield: Patrol as below
  • Discard 2 Draw 3 rs Draw 1
  • Tech 2 cards before my next turn

Board Info:

Buildings:

  • :heart: Base HP: 20
  • Tech1 HP: 5
  • Hero’s Hall HP: 4

In Patrol:

  • :psblueshield: Squad Leader:
  • :psfist: Elite:
  • :pspig: Scavenger: Skeleton (1/1)
  • :exhaust: Technician:
  • :target: Lookout:

In Play:

  • Garth (3/3 lvl 7)
  • Orpal (2/5 lvl 6)
  • Bone Collector (3/3)
  • Plague Spitter (1/1)
  • Skeleton Javelineer (1/1)
  • Pestering Haunt (1/1)
  • Graveyard (3hp, holding Bone Collector)

Economy Info:

Cards:

  • Hand: 4
  • Deck: 4
  • Disc: 0

Gold:

  • Gold: 0
  • Workers: 10

End of Turn Hand

Death and Decay
Sacrifice the Weak
Nether Drain
Thieving Imp

End of Turn Discard
My Thoughts

Wow… still won. Well I guess it validates my “Vandy isn’t the strongest” argument, but I’m still pretty surprised


1 Like

This one’s your win, GG!

3 Likes

GG! I’m surprised, I’ll start game 2 next week probably!

3 Likes

so much for “black’s gutted without vandy” :wink: