Just checking, is the word “fetch” used on any of the actual Yomi cards or is it just a community term? I know at least Grave’s Knowing the Opponent says to “search your deck or discard pile” etc.
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Consent of the Governed to 1.0 speed.
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I think this to help vs. Zane and 2.4 J to help vs. Geiger are the only changes Quince needs.
Also what do you think about Oni’s 6 being block/named throw 8.6 speed 8+4+4 damage? I think this is the only change Oni needs.
Yeah, I don’t mind that.
Arg does not appreciate Quince having a tool that favorably trades with Arg’s 2 and Jack (and activates Positive Spin!), but that might be a bit of collateral damage we will have to accept in order to help Quince.
Consider, however: Fast Time Spiral to 2.6 speed instead instead of Quince J being sped up to 2.4? Or does FTS at 2.6 mess up one of Geiger’s other MUs?
Fast Time Spiral not clashing with normal Fire Ball speed like Grave’s Lightning Cloud sounds unfortunate.
I’m of the opinion a 2.4 Speed Jack on Quince is really strong since it triggers Positive Spin on Chip, but at the same time he could use a tool that clashes with FTS.
The problem is like some of Quince’s favorable matchups like Grave and Arg it just helps those get stronger. I feel like Jokers breaking Geiger’s Temporal Distortion should be enough. (Likely 6-4, but not 6.5+ bad like it is now.)
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We’ve talked about this. Quince jack stays at 2.6.
I say this as a man interested in yomi balance as a whole.
Quince would be mad.
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Fair enough. My thinking was that since Geiger vs. Quince is much worse than Quince vs. Arg/Grave the tradeoff would be worth it, but you guys have convinced me this might not be the case. Let’s hope Gold Burst ending TD is enough for Quince!
I’ll add 1.0 Consent for Quince and the Oni 6-throw change to the Bureau of Balance thread since they seem to have consensus support.
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Yeah 2.4 J would be busted. As Jonny mentioned it makes his good matchups even stronger and in general OP in neutral because even on clash positive spin will trigger and 2.4 speed clashes or beats a lot of things.
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Yes this is a much better way to word it! Corrected my original post
Nice work @fenixoftheashes adding 
and 
changes to the wiki
So we’ve given Oni an extra throw. What do people think 
needs for his matchups against 
? We could buff his throw damage by +1 per pump across the board, but I’m potentially more in favour of letting Roll the Dice trigger on throws:
Roll the Dice
At the end of combat, if you dealt damage or block damage with an attack or throw this turn, you may discard the top card of your deck and consult the table …
This means that his throws can randomly knock down, or (if he spends face cards to pump) get the pump damage for free. Given that face cards are least valuable vs DeGrey and Arg and more valuable than throw pump damage vs everyone else it would seem quite a targeted change.
Thoughts?
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I’d rather increased pump damage OR just an extra pump or two so his big hand size is more rewarded off throw. Lum’s Oki is pretty good as is IMO because of his amazing straights, unjokerable dodge and if you block a fast AA you usually get reknocked down. Triggering off 6 Throw which is usually a dominant throw is pretty strong early game and I think it helps his strong matchups a lot.
Face cards returning on throw? That is way too strong. Makes his throw game early way too good.
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I can’t argue with the theoretical power of efficient throw damage, but would he definitely want to risk his face cards for +3 damage each in the matchups he already does well in? I was hoping this idea might be like our theorised midori human K SPD - spending it early game means he doesn’t have it for later so the cost seems fair for the effect.
If we did go with a additional damage, I think I might prefer an extra pump rather than extra damage per pump so he’s quite distinct from Onimaru. Lum needing to spend 4 extra cards to fully pump his throws sounds crazy, but the damage would be 18, 20 or 21 off of 6,8,9 fully pumped, and 26 off of 10 throw. Those are good numbers!
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Incidentally, adding an extra pump is exactly equivalent in terms of damage to +1 damage per pump. I don’t play enough Lum to know whether he can reliably get to 11/12 cards in hand against either DeGrey or Lum. If he can, an extra pump per throw is probably the way to go, since better damage efficiency off throw will probably affect his good MUs more, and we should avoid that.
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Two characters I like have received very little discussion in this thread so far: Menelker and Valerie.
I think both are fine as they are for v3, particularly when the top characters are being slightly nerfed. But what do other, more experienced players think?
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I guess we could try an extra pump on throws. My concern is that it will just make his lategame burst damage better vs. everyone and not do much vs. DeGrey/Arg (the challenge there is getting efficient throw damage throughout the entire game without wrecking your hand). It’s difficult because I’m confident that adding +1 damage to Lum’s throw pumps is busted, but I’m not sure giving him an extra pump is a good change either.
One idea I’ve seen is to tweak Jackpot. DeGrey and Arg both rely heavily on their Aces against Lum, and since they are usually known and recurring Jackpot has the potential to do work. DeGrey often goes to low hand with known Aces, which is the optimal situation for Jackpot. Arg can counter Jackpot, but then he’s risking letting a Poker Flourish through. This is a suggestion I’ve seen before:
Jackpot doesn’t draw on use and reads: The opponent reveals 2 cards from their hand at random. For each Ace, they take 5 damage and you draw a card. For each Joker, you take 2 damage.
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I think this Jackpot change plus DeGrey’s AA not applying MHG damage makes that mu fine, but the Arg mu will still be worse than 6-4 because of his counter. Niijima-san suggested limiting Arg’s counter to one use per turn, would that hurt Arg too much vs. Gloria and Quince?
Also just in general, I think some change to make Arg’s counter more interactive would be healthy for the game, preferably without making his Gloria mu significantly worse. Grave/Perse/Sets counters all feel more interactive to play with and against.
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GIVE MENELKER SEVEN DAMAGE THROWS
It’s the only change he needs.
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Menelker and Valerie are both comfortably in the upper half of the tier list currently and would naturally rise after top tier nerfs, so they definitely don’t need general buffs like hp or throw damage.
Matchups:
-Mene is in a very good place where none of his mus are more skewed than 6-4, though he struggles to varying degrees against grapplers (especially Troq), Zane, Oni, and DeGrey. He probably does best against Jaina and Geiger but not worse than 6-4.
-Val probably struggles most against Troq but he’s getting nerfed so it’ll be alright. On the other hand, Val has been argued to have mus more favored than 6-4 against Quince/Gwen/Ven. I personally think none of these are worse than 6-4, but they’re not great. Quince getting 1.0 Consent helps him noticeably and Gwen/Ven could use slight general buffs so I think those matchups should be handled from the other end.
Menelker Suggestions:
-One Menelker change I like is tweaking Slow J to be more efficient at the cost of one pump: 10+10 damage, +1 Jack, 2 CP Starter. This makes Slow J more efficient as a throw/slow attack punish and dodge followup. This is only really important vs. grapplers (throws/high normals), Zane (throws/Crash Bomb), Oni (Guard Crush normals/weak to dodges), and DeGrey (PCP/Pilebunker).
-DSD is pretty crazy. It’s the definition of an HVS (high variance super) since it’s 55 damage on a 4-Ace (usually speed dominant) throw and he can dodge into it. This is exacerbated by Menelker’s ability to banish Jokers meaning it’s rare for the opponent to have an out. I understand that HVS moves are intended to create high intensity Yomi situations by giving players a lot to lose or gain in a single combat, but I think they are too strong and over-centralizing in the metagame. I’d take 5 damage off DSD/BU/TPoS, rework MA, and have FDB lose a pump to address this.
Personally, I’d leave Val and Menelker as they are for now. As Fenix mentioned, Val is fairly solid mid-tier. Menelker is… I don’t know enough about Menelker to say anything about his tier status with any confidence.
I’d say Ven vs Val needs a look, but agree that it should be from the Ven side.
I’d like Gwen to get something in v3 though, even if it’s just a damage buff to her AAA super, say putting it to 25. I know that Dreadlands Portal got lots of nerfs to damage over the course of her development because her innate lets her do a lot more powering-up over the course of a match than most characters, and so a lot of her play focused around AAA/dodge games at that time.
Given her weakness to 1.0 and faster moves, I think she needs to be able to make the decision to go with that gameplan in the MUs she currently struggles with. Against Grave for instance, with a 25 damage Portal, assuming he draws 1 Joker and uses it successfully, she would now need to dodge into her super 5 times to kill him, rather than 6.
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