IMO Setsuki should be buffed
Yeah this sounds like a pretty reasonable moderate nerf to what she does. It might be fine to still let her recurr AA with this nerf in place, but that would probably be best to be decided in testing.
The troq section in this is absolutely hilarious 
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Oh? I’ll have to check it out.
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I don’t think the Troq nerfs affect his MU against Sets in a super meaningful way. AA at 1.2 still “beats” her J, though it loses to single A and now trades with AA (I think?). But if Setsuki is playing single A or AA in neutral you’re probably happy with that, tbh.
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Yes, you need to check it out! It’s the reason that I like Troq as a character as much as I do!
(As in, I’m in a D&D campaign where the DM decided it would be OK for me to play as Troq. Yes, grappling is involved. Also, this is despite me not playing Troq in Yomi—I just like him as a character.)
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Given the 
discussion and these comments in particular:
I’ve added 7s not looping 7s and AA to 15(2) damage as “consensus changes”.
I’ve also added 7s not looping 7s or pairs as “changes under consideration”, since fetching AA might still be required vs (reworked) Troq.
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I think you’re on to something here which could potentially help Rook-Arg, Lum-Arg, and Arg-Gloria in one fell swoop while also making Arg’s counter more interactive. Here’s what I have in mind.
Reworked Crash & Flow: Once per turn, counter an ability. If it was played from hand, put it on the bottom of their deck and knock down the opponent.
Here’s how I think it affects the most relevant matchups.
Lum-Arg: Lum loves this. Combine it with the proposed Jackpot change and he can get a lot of mileage out of stockpiling abilities and using them all in one turn. Lum-Arg might be no worse than 6-4!
Rook-Arg: This would make Rook-Arg slightly worse since he wouldn’t draw a card when his special blocks are countered. But, as has already been discussed, the way counters interact with special blocks is already very unintuitive. One would assume that countering a special block would remove its ability text and make it act like a normal block, but instead it is just discarded without doing anything. So, combine this Crash & Flow rework with having special blocks act like normal blocks when countered and the Rook-Arg mu becomes better! Considering we are changing special blocks for intuition reasons already, this should probably happen anyway.
Arg-Gloria: Crash & Flow doesn’t make the opponent draw a card, so that helps Arg when countering Sphere and Jack especially since Gloria’s engine is very card-hungry. Countering Sphere also KDs Gloria, and while the KD ends before Healing Touch it certainly doesn’t hurt Arg to have Gloria on her back for a combat. The only time this might hurt Arg is when he has multiple counters in hand and Gloria uses multiple abilities, and even then he just has to wait to get good value out of his counters (Gloria’s Jacks return to hand so another counter opportunity is inevitable). So it seems this helps Arg in the matchup!
So if I’m right that makes four skewed matchups (also Lum-DeGrey) that are significantly helped by making the following changes:
-Reworked Crash & Flow: Once per turn, counter an ability. If it was played from hand, put it on the bottom of their deck and knock down the opponent.
-Jackpot doesn’t draw on use and reads: The opponent reveals 2 cards from their hand at random. For each Ace, they take 5 dmg and you draw a card. For each Joker, you take 2 dmg.
-Countered special blocks act like normal blocks
Plus, it accomplishes the goal of making Arg’s counter more interactive in two ways: limiting it to once per turn, and having it knock down the opponent when the countered ability was played from hand. This aspect affects a bunch of matchups in somewhat nuanced ways, but thus far I can think of only positive benefits (like Midori getting Dragon Form more often in the mu) and it doesn’t seem to break anything. I could be wrong though so we should think on that.
All of these things sound great to me, and it actually feels more elegant than current implementation if anything. Thoughts?
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I like it! Though I do wonder if having a “perfect counter” (aka one with no cost to play) against any abilities not played from hand (like Windmill Crusher) would be a bit too powerful, even if it can only be used once per turn. I do remember that the official breakdown of the EX characters made a big deal out of how EX Quince got a perfect counter and how none of the other characters had one in either normal or EX form, so it seems to have been a design goal to avoid that for the base game. Maybe something like this would work?
10 – Crash and Flow [Reaction]
Once per turn, counter an ability. If it was played from hand, put it on the bottom of their deck and knock down the opponent. If not, that opponent draws a card. (Prevent and undo the ability. You can’t counter Aces, Jokers or character cards.)
Also, how does the KD part of it work in a 2v2 game? I assume you can’t KD benched players, but does using it on a benched opponent’s ability KD the active opponent?
I want to love this. But I think this is a pretty big buff for Arg in any MU where the opponent has Draw Phase abilities, since this would allow Arg to get a free knockdown right before combat cards need to be selected. This undoubtedly helps Arg in MUs (such as Midori, Grave, BBB, Jaina) where Arg already enjoys an advantage. (I think this change would have the biggest effect on the Midori MU, changing it from Arg-advantaged to Arg-dominated.) Arg has a fairly good mix up normal game with x.4 speed attacks, and he also loves using chip damage in addition to Hex damage on knockdown turns to set up checkmate scenarios.
I’m not gonna say definitively either way, but this seems pretty strong for Arg.
I will say, assuming War Stomp does not get changed, I do love the idea of countering War Stomp and knocking down Troq, only to have Troq play a second War Stomp and knockdown Arg. 
As far as I know this would be the only way in all of Yomi to have both players knocked down during the Combat Phase.
EDIT: I forgot how War Stomp works.
EDIT 2: My original point actually still stands if Troq plays War Stomp first and KD’s Arg, and then plays a second War Stomp, which Arg then counters. Then you could have both players KD’d during combat. 
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- War Stomp can’t be used when Troq is knocked down, even in the current game
- If at any point both players would be knocked down, I believe they both stand back up (don’t have time to confirm atm)
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Pretty sure the rules state that if both players are KD at the end of the turn then they both stand up before drawing their next card. So in a scenario where both players were KD’d right before combat they wouldn’t stand up until the end of the turn. As far as I remember, at least.
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That sounds plausible. I did put a link to the rulebook in the new Collected Resources topic, if you’d like to check that.
From Page 14:
If both players are knocked down at the same time, cancel the knockdown effect next combat (no one gets the knockdown token). Imagine that you both got up from being knocked down, so neither of you can perform mixup normals on the other next combat.
So, it seems like if both players were to be knocked down during the Draw Phase, then I guess they would stand up immediately, since that same turn’s combat reveal would be the “next” combat? I doubt this ruling had this scenario in mind since the game as it exists right now does not allow for more than one player to be KD’d during the Draw Phase.
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I think in the current online game it stands players up before the draw step, but I agree with your interpretation of the rulebook. Weird!
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Hmmm I really like it, but @zqxx may have a point here, 
could end up abusing the knockdown in other matchups we aren’t really focussed on. We’ll need to be careful.
However I don’t think 
is as bad as suggested. If Arg does knock him down at the start of the turn then he’s already played his one counter for the turn. So Midori can either jump straight into DF or know he can play a Glimpse later in the turn. This means if Arg does anything other than AA/Block, can blow him up with dQ, which means in turn means can block more.
For most characters, it will mean they’ll want to have multiple ability cards in hand before trying to use one, but if they get 2 in hand they get to play one for sure. I’m sure it will turn into mind games of “do they have another ability to play afterwards”, which I like a lot!
I also like @hobusu’s suggestion of putting the card draw back in (gotta have both the crash and the flow), but as written it would let 
draw a card if her J* is countered, which is perhaps not so good. Could we focus it in on “during combat” abiltities - these are explicitly always abilities on combat revealed cards.
How about this:
10 Crash and Flow [Reaction]
Once per turn, counter an ability. If it was on a combat revealed card, that opponent draws a card. Otherwise, put it on the bottom of their deck and knock the opponent down. (Prevent and undo the ability. You can’t counter Aces, Jokers or character cards.)
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I think it would actually help Midori in the Arg matchup because of the one counter per turn limit. As hug0 mentioned, Midori does have to deal with being knocked down for one turn, but in exchange he can use a second uncounterable Dragon Form or threaten uncounterable Glimpse that turn. The net effect would be that Midori gets more opportunities to use his Dragon cards, at the cost of sometimes being knocked down when he first enters Dragon Form. As Midori I think I take that.
The proposed War Stomp rewording is “If neither player is knocked down…”. So fortunately we wouldn’t have to worry about the rules for a whole new “two players knocked down during Draw Phase” situation.
This is very clever. I was trying to think of ways to make it affect “During Combat” abilities but not “End of Combat” abilities but couldn’t think up anything elegant. I like the version you have here much better especially for the flavor of having both “Crash” and “Flow” effects.
EDIT: And actually, doesn’t this also mean that countering Gloria’s J* at end of combat would knock her down? Does knock down at end of combat carry over to next turn and thus prevent Healing Touch? How would this work with Combat Reveal / End of Combat / End of Turn abilities?
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Well, if the consensus thinks differently from me then I won’t press the point, but as someone who plays both characters, I feel like Arg is getting the better end of the bargain in this change.
This is certainly one way to frame this. Another way to frame it is, “Arg has two really good moves he can power up for at any time, one of which recurs unless it loses combat, that BOTH beat dQ and one of which beats literally anything Midori can do while KD except blocking, making Midori vulnerable to Arg’s excellent mix up normals.” 
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Personally I find DF being countered super annoying so I’d probably take the KD to guarantee my 2nd one working. But I could easily be wrong on this, so it will need a lot of testing. I don’t want to drown out your wisdom here, we need this input!
I think it would depend on the exact timing of when KD/not KD is usually set. I think it might be at the end of combat, but I could be wrong. We’ll need to check the manual.
Before I posted this wording I had a quick look through, I think [During Combat] is always on a combat revealed card, while all the other timings are always played from hand, except for Gloria’s J - so its a pretty unique ability.
There would be a weird edge case with my wording - Gloria could play her J as a combat reveal and combo into one or more Js. The combat revealed J would trigger the flow part, while a follow up J would trigger the crash part.
To make this behviour consistent, it would have to be “If it was a During Combat ability …” which is less elegant, but not massively different elegance-wise from “if this was played from hand”
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I checked the manual!
For reference this would be my suggested best wording for the reworked counter to avoid weird edge cases with Gloria’s J* and to explicitly codify our desired interaction of counters and special blocks:
10* Crash and Flow [Reaction]
Once per turn, counter an ability. It was a During Combat ability, that opponent draws a card. Otherwise knock that opponent down and put it on the bottom of their deck. (Prevent and undo the ability. You can’t counter Aces, Jokers or character cards. Countered special blocks revert to normal blocks.)
So I’ve read over the relevant sections of the rulebook, and as far as I can tell the timing for setting KD status appears to be just before or during the “End of Combat” step.
The combat phase is broken down on pages 6-10 into the following steps:
- Play combat cards face down, then reveal
- Determine combat winner
- Normal draw rule
- Joker (rewind time) or bluff
- Play combos
- End of combat
The important sentences on KD are on page 14:
To knock the opponent down, end your combo with a knockdown move …
When you knockdown the opponent, give them the knockdown token to help them remember that their defense are weakened next combat (next turn).
Although the precise timing of the KD/standing trigger is not exactly specified, it’s clear that it happens during the current combat phase *and* that the winning player has to finish their combo before KD can be set. Therefore the KD status of both combatants can only be set either right at the end of the Play Combos step or during the End of Combat step. Of the two I find more credible the idea that it’s part of Play Combos, since the text explicitly links the ending of the combo and setting KD. For v3 I think it would be best to add an explicit Set Knockdown step to the list between Play Combos and End of Combat.
In summary, it seems credible to me that countering an “End of Combat” ability would result in knockdown that remains until the following turn. Even if it isn’t exactly clear how it would work in v2, it seems simple enough to make it explicitly work like this for v3.
This would make countering Gloria’s J* really good for Argagarg. I think this probably makes it worth continuing to explore with idea in his other match-ups.
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I think any ability that requires an extra phase is bad and should be rethought.
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